our projectors, our filmstrip machines, as we hitch up our stoves and our vocational machines, we are overloading such facilities to an extreme degree.

Kentucky's State fire marshal says that the Chicago school fire could be duplicated in almost 75 percent of Kentucky schools. In Michigan, Dr. Lynn Bartlett, State superintendent of public instruction, estimates that there are at least 1,800 schools in his State which must be considered fire hazards.

This is a tragic situation which, unless corrected, can only spawn tragedies with American children playing the leading roles.

Now I'm going to turn to the subject of teachers' salaries, and I'm going to do it by an illustration.

A friend of mine, an educator, hired two painters to do some work for him on a weekend. He was impressed not only by the fine job the painters did but by the obvious fact that they were well educated. They could match him word for word on most of the problems of today.

Much to his surprise, he learned that the weekend painters were public school teachers from Monday through Friday, and they had their master's degrees. But they had to take a second job in order to make enough money to send their own children to college.

This is true of many teachers. Realizing the value of a college education, they are almost desperate in seeing that their children get one, too.

On a national level about 28 percent of the men teachers hold second jobs not only during the school year, but during the summer too. These figures match the ones we recently collected in a local salary survey in Cheyenne. At the time I left home, we had only 41 percent of the returns in, but, of those, we discovered that 30 percent of the teachers are supplementing their incomes through additional or outside employment, and 37 percent reported that their husbands or wives are working for this reason.

Our present salary schedule makes it increasingly hard to staff our schools properly. Now Cheyenne is a little town, but next year we are going to have to have between 65 and 75 teachers, and we would like to get the best qualified teachers. It is going to be difficult for us to do under existing conditions.

Mr. THOMPSON. What is your starting salary in Cheyenne?

Mrs. PAGEL. At the present time it is $3,850 for a teacher with a bachelor's degree and no experience.

Mr. THOMPSON. How about for a master's?

Mrs. PAGEL. Just $100 more.

Mr. THOMPSON. $3,950?

Mrs. PAGEL. Yes.

Mr. THOMPSON. Do they have regular increments?

Mrs. PAGEL. The regular increments are $200 for the first 5 years, and then they become $100 up to a top of $5,500 for the bachelor's degree, and you can go to $6,000 then with a master's degree.

Mr. THOMPSON. Do you have available the national average starting figure?

Mrs. PAGEL. Mr. Lambert?

Mr. LAMBERT. The national average starting figure for a teacher with a bachelor's degree is approximately $3,800 at the present time. Mr. THOMPSON. In other words, Cheyenne is about average?

Mr. LAMBERT. I would think so; possibly a little above average. Mrs. PAGEL. I think it might interest you to know that 13 percent of the teachers in Wyoming earn less than $3,500.

Mr. LAFORE. How does that compare to 10 years ago or 5 years ago? What is the trend, in other words? Has it substantially increased even though it is low?

Mr. LAMBERT. Salaries have gone up at a rate of about 4 or 5 percent a year for the last 5 or 6 years.

Mr. LAFORE. Is this nationally?

Mr. LAMBERT. Yes.

Mr. LAFORE. How does Wyoming compare to that?

Mrs. PAGEL. Wymong would come rather close to those same figures. Mr. LAFORE. Thank you very much.

Mr. LAMBERT. The present average for classroom teachers in the country as a whole, by the way, is $4,775. This is equal to about $4,000 in 1947-49 dollars.

Mrs. PAGEL. You see, the same problem is facing all the school systems all across the country. This is true because, as the general property tax has become less and less effective as a producer of sufficient income for the operation of local governments and education, the financial responsibility has become increasingly shared by the State. Costs of a quality education have now outrun State resources. As Congressman Metcalf told you sitting right here, we have utterly exhausted our State resources. The public must make use of every possible resource to give our children the kind of teachers and schools they deserve.

Gentlemen, effective teaching and effective learning depend both on adequate facilities and a plentiful supply of qualified teachers. Both cost money, more money than we can supply from State and local revenues. But there is no doubt that our country can afford both. Thank you.

Mr. BAILEY. Just a minute, please.

The members of the subcommittee appreciate getting a little different angle from you than that that has come from witnesses that have previously testified before our subcommittee, but, if you will note, this Metcalf-Murray bill is confined to two general purposes: one of them for school construction, and the other for implementation of teachers' salaries.

I would like to ask your opinion. This bill is predicated upon schoolroom enrollment, or the number of school children available of school age in the several States. We have a problem here-and I was impressed by the testimony of the president of Moorehead Teachers College in Kentucky who testified before the committee at hearings last year, in which he testified that 64 percent of the graduates of Moorehead Teachers College in Kentucky accepted positions outside the State of Kentucky. We have the same problem in our State of West Virginia. I believe, according to the group that was here to visit me some days ago, it is about 39 percent.

Do you have those figures exactly?

Mr. LAMBERT. I think that is approximately right.

Mr. BAILEY. About 39 percent of the graduates of the teachers' training schools in West Virginia can secure better pay, and they go to other States.

That brings up the question that this committee is going to have to decide in writing this legislation: Shall we distribute those moneys on the basis of school-age population or shall we consider the matter of the need on the part of about 19 or 20 States that are suffering from the fact that their salaries are so low that all they are doing in their States is training teachers for the benefit of some other wealthier State that pays better salaries.

The question is, Shall we leave the bill applied on the basis of the number of schoolchildren throughout the Nation, or shall we give consideration to the basis of need?

Mrs. PAGEL. I think this is a well written bill. I think when you go into it on the basis of need you are going to get into trouble such as what is the cost-of-living index in certain communities and certain States, because we know that that varies, too. We get into many problems of that nature.

In Wyoming we say the worst thing we can do is to stampede the critters. If we put too much money into a community that has not had it, we are liable to scatter some of this.

I think this begins to equalize itself through the period of years, and will be, by this very process, stabilized as it goes along, with wise use of the money being made at every level.

Mr. BAILEY. Do you think the committee, in preparing this legislation, should go so far as to, we will say, skirt the edge of Federal controls to the extent that we should require them to use this money for teachers' salaries, or are we just going to give it to them and let them use their judgment?

Are we going to continue the present situation of inequality, or are we going to try to bring up the backward States in the way of salaries and in the way of being able to retain their own teachers that they train within their own States?

Mr. LAMBERT. We have prepared certain tables which we would be glad to submit for the record, which I think indicate that when money is distributed on the basis of child population-that is population aged 5 to 17-you do get a surprising amount of equalization. For instance, the first year's allocation of Murray-Metcalf funds would increase Alabama's school funds-total expenditures-17 percent but New York's only 5 percent.

Another thing is that some of the central cities in this country are having as difficult a time operating their school systems as the rural districts are. California has the highest average salary in the country, and, yet, they have one of the most critical teacher shortages. They have approximately 17,500 teachers employed on temporary or emergency certificates one of the highest percentages in the country. In large urban school districts there is much competition for the tax dollar-to pave streets, build sewage disposal plants, and provide other services.

Mr. BAILEY. May I inquire do you have that information tabulated that you could submit for inclusion in the record of the hearing? Mr. LAMBERT. Yes. We will be glad to submit the information. Mr. BAILEY. If there are no objections, we would be glad to accept this information for inclusion at this point in the record.

(Information referred to follows:)

TABLE 1.-Percent the estimated allocation proposed under the Murray-Metcalf bill at $25 per child (5-17) in 1959-60 is of total public elementary and secondary school expenditures, 1958-59, by States1

The projections of school-age population used in preparing this table were made by the U.S. Bureau of the Census at the request and expense of the research division of the National Education Association. The series of projections of school-age population used in this table were made under the assumption that the 1950-57 pattern and level of net interstate migration for the age group (5-17 years) will continue throughout the projection period. This series of projections was selected by the NEA research division from a group of 3 series based on different assumptions regarding future internal migration for the age group. • Estimated by NEA research division.

Source: Col. 2: NEA Research Division, "Advance Estimates of Public Elementary and Secondary Schools 1958-59." Washington, D.C.: the association, December 1958.

Mr. THOMPSON. Is not equalization inherent in a distribution formula because of the disparity in building costs according to geography?

Mr. LAMBERT. That is true. For instance, the cost of a site is a substantial part of the total cost of a building. Naturally, in a city you pay considerably more for your sites than you do in a rural area or in a State that is low in financial ability and low in wealth. Mr. THOMPSON. And notwithstanding the fact that the Davis-Bacon Act, as called for in this, is the only Federal control, and the wage rates in certain areas of the country are extremely higher or lower than they are in other areas, this also contributes to equalization, would you not say?

Mr. LAMBERT. Yes, and the way buildings are constructed in various parts of the country affect costs. Buildings are more expensive to build in the northern States than they are in the South because of the way they have to be constructed. Heating systems, insulation, and other factors have some effect.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask Mrs. Pagel a question.

First of all, I am sure all of the members of this committee are grateful you delayed your return to Cheyenne to testify this morning.

I am appalled at the picture you give of the educational system in Wyoming, and shocked that it is not better than it seems to be on the basis of your testimony. But, if we should assume that there was a failure to teach our young people to read and write generally in every State in the Union, would it not still be necessary for us to define what the Federal role should be?

You have not touched on that at all. You have indicated that we should be providing some money both to help build classrooms and to help supplement teachers' salaries. Could you just tell us what your views are on that point? You have talked only of courageous legislation. I do not know just what courageous legislation means. Could you help me out on that?

Which area do you think is of the most immediate concern to us at the Federal level?

Mrs. PAGEL. Mr. Congressman, I don't think we can specify. Now I am a classroom teacher, and I have great faith in the classroom teachers across this Nation and in the administration of our schools and in all of the local school boards that run our schools. I think we will want to give them credit for looking at their own local situation within a State, and that this money, as the bill is written now, will let them put it where they need it the most.

I think one of the things that people fear is some Federal role that is going to interfere with local control. We get about 6 percent of our budget in Cheyenne from the Federal Government because we are a federally affected area.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. You did not answer my question.

Where do you think the most crying need is, for the Federal Government to help build classrooms, or to supplement teachers' salaries? You have mentioned those as two areas that need attention, and have said that we can do both.

The country is not only doing both to a degree, but, of course, can do both.