science, who has done a lot of this for universities. There are others in the Senate and House of Representatives from the mainland. From your standpoint of getting, as well as theoretical, practical experience, I think this is something you might consider. You could probably get people like that for a very reasonable fee. Mr. TURNBULL. We think it's a very fine suggestion. I might also point out that when people come to Hawaii, such as the chairman of this subcommittee, we are happy to encourage our students in their requests for speeches and discussions about, for example, foreign affairs and other such things with which such people as yourself might be interested. Chairman HAYS. I spent a very enjoyable hour the other night. I I did not have more time. Mrs. Bolton? am sorry Mrs. BOLTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask Dr. Spoehr, in your consideration—and you show something that we speak of as having done your homework-in considering it all, what would be your feeling about the possibility of making—if you have a 5-year program, does that solidify what you do so that when you, perhaps, come along 3 years and you find the thing isn't too good, how are you going to change it? See what I mean? Dr. SPOEHR. Yes, indeed. It would be my hope that the appraisal projected for the fall of 1963 could give the Center sufficient guidance for the next 3 years. However, if the Center obviously is not working, then it surely is incumbent upon the Center to identify its difficulties day by day and to take the appropriate action to correct them. Mrs. BOLTON. As a member of Congress, we sometimes find ourselves stuck in the mud on just that kind of thing, and it's pretty hard to move Congress out of the groove they have let themselves get into regardless of administration, partisanship, or anything else with a thing of this kind, and certainly in the Foreign Affairs Committee there is a common effort to do the right thing by the country, but it's a very difficult matter once a thing is set they will go back 10 years and say, "You said so and so at such and such a time. What about it? What's the matter with it?" Dr. SPOEHR. The Center does, I believe, enjoy an advantage and that is that the Center itself is not a large organization. Consequently the responsibility for making changes lies with a small group and in positions of top administrative responsibility. They will be amenable to guidance and advice, and I am sure that in terms of personality characteristics the Center cannot succeed unless the top administrative personnel have a degree of give and take which will permit them to absorb constructive criticism. Mrs. BOLTON. As far as Congress is concerned, you are dealing with a group that is constantly changing; the same is true of the State Department. It has been going through convolutions of change, and it is a very interesting possibility that you will have to reeducate every year or two, and that is, of course, a problem so that we often find people in the Congress and around in the Department trying to keep steady by standing by something that has been said sometime past when it is really out of date, so would you kindly bear *hat in mind all along. Thank you. Chairman HAYS. Mr. Saund? Mr. SAUND. I wish to thank Dr. Spoehr for that very fine statement. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask questions. In order to save time, it's perfectly all right with me if the answers are submitted in writing. Now to go back to the same thing I talked about yesterday with Dr. Turnbull, how much money per student is required to maintain this Center? I have my figures here-$5 million divided by 250 students for 2 years; that's about $10,000 per student per annum. I am just talking about cold, hard facts. This is the way it is going to be considered by the appropriations committee. How many students can we bring in for so much money? If you cannot explain to me how you arrived at that figure of $5,000, shall I take it for granted it costs the U.S. Government $5,000 to bring in an Asiatic student as of today. That means overall expense. And now let me ask you this, and you can give it to me in writing; How much of that $5,000 goes for administration and how much is actually spent on each student? Chairman HAYS. I think what we would like to have, in addition to what Judge Saund has said, a complete breakdown of what money has been budgeted for what purpose for each student, how much for housing, how much for incidental expenses, how much for tuition, etc. STATEMENT OF WILLIAM M. WACHTER, ADMINISTRATIVE VICE PRESIDENT, UNIVERSITY OF HAWAII Mr. WACHTER. This is partially in your record already, Mr. Chairman, but we can supplement this with an additional statement very easily, yes. (The information requested follows:) Estimate of administration costs (not including special programs and project support costs) per student scholarship for fiscal year 1963 Per student Administration: 450 students in program_. Student services: 450 students in program__ Asian student scholarships-1962-63 awards for 24-month scholarship $120 540 230 American student scholarships-1962-63 awards for 21-month scholarship Asian and American senior scholars-1962-63 awards for 12-month grant Fiscal year 1963: 20 grants at $13,500 $270,000 The grant includes transportation, subsistence, and compensation for the period of service in research or other activity. Mr. SAUND. Dr. Spoehr talked about the projection to 1963 when you would have about 600 students and about 30 senior scholars. Now would these senior scholars cost just the same amount of money as each student or how much? What would be the differentation there? Could you give us a statement on that? Now, I will ask both of you this question: In what way do these student scholarships differ from the Fulbright-Hays scholarships? You can give me that in writing, if you can, so we will have a real good analytical picture of that. In what way does it differ from the Fulbright-Hays scholarship? Because if you have 600 students coming here, the natural question is, "Don't we provide for that in the Fulbright-Hays bill?" Now these students you say you have 230 students now. How are they divided insofar as their subjects of study are concerned? Mr. TURNBULL. That is in the document I submitted. (See p. 9 and p. 111.) Mr. SAUND. All right; when we need the document it will be right there. You can answer this question in about two or three lines: Why do you think Hawaii is the proper place to bring these 230 students instead of any other institution on the mainland? Those are the questions that are going to be asked about the East-West Center. Now, Dr. Spoehr, you talked about the projected growth to 1966 of 1,000 students and senior scholars in all categories. Now, how much will that cost in the next 5 years for capital outlay and yearly annual appropriation? I will tell you I have had experience. I am very much in favor of spending a little money-$5 million annually-for foreign students on the mainland to give them advice and counsel as to how they should select their studies and to give them help in finding employment during their vacation period, also point out to them the possibilities of employment when they go back home. Chairman HAYs. Judge, would you yield at that point? Mr. SAUND. Yes. Chairman HAYS. Would you object to giving us a figure right now as to what you anticipate your 5-year program would cost? Dr. SPOEHR. I do not object, sir, if you give me one minute to make some additions. Chairman HAYS. Yes, sir; just so we have a figure that we can discuss. Do you mind, Judge? Mr. SAUND. Oh, no; I just want to be sure you know I am not finished. Chairman HAYS. While Dr. Spoehr is adding up, you can continue. Mr. SAUND. I was just saying that 50,000 foreign students are now studying in American universities and I think that America is really contributing $4,000 or $5,000 for each of those students in maintaining university campuses and also they are taking the space from American students when we need space in the universities for our own students. I thought it was necessary to give them counsel as to what studies they should engage in and help them to find jobs when they go back to their respective lands. I figured an annual appropriation of $5 million on this project. When you ask for such money, there will be many questions asked on the floor of the House of Representatives. It's pretty hard to get money, you may know. Dr. Spoehr, I agree with you 100 percent when you say what happens to them after they leave here is extremely important. It's no use bringing scholars from Asiatic countries and students from Asiatic countries if when they go back they can find no place in their own society where their training will be recognized and utilized. If you don't provide a place for them they merely become better educated. They would have seen a better life but in their own countries they are excluded from it. I think that is a very good objective to keep in mind. Thank you. Chairman HAYS. Mr. Seely-Brown? Mr. SEELY-BROWN. While Dr. Spoehr is adding up the figures, I think I will ask Mr. Turnbull: Do you anticipate any change in the ratio of Asian to American students as you project your program! Mr. TURNBULL. We began with the first group, which came in last February, with a ratio of approximately 11 to 1, or I think, 10 to 1, which was our original plan. Mr. WACHTER. Four to one. Mr. TURNBULL. Excuse me, 4 to 1. That was our original plan. Now as a result of recommendations made by the Kerr committee, we have changed this fall to a ratio which comes down somewhat to a little bit larger number of American students to the Asian students-about three to one. Mr. WACHTER. Two. Mr. TURNBULL. No, 2 to 1 for next fall. For next September we are now screening on the ratio of two Asian students to each American student, which was the recommendation of the Kerr committee. Sothe answer is "yes," we are changing it. Again this takes almost a year to make the switch. Mr. SEELY-BROWN. Sir, do you have the general figure-subject to change, of course--but a figure that you feel is necessary? Dr. SPOEIR. The figure, sir, that I feel is necessary to support the East-West Center under the conditions of growth which I have outlined, for the period fiscal year 1963 through fiscal year 1967, is $42.231,000, approximately. Mr. SEELY-BROWN. Thank you very much. Now I would like to ask you another question, Dr. Spoehr. You talked about the fact that you envisioned that we would have visiting professors who would come here from Asia for limited periods of time because of the fact that you did not want to deplete the Asian universities of some of their most able faculty members. In that same connection it would occur to me since you have twice as many Asians, or anticipate having approximately twice as many Asians here as you will have American students, I am wondering if it would not be wise to have the greater percentage of visiting professors come here from American universities so that they would be able to contribute their knowledge to the Asians because that seems to be the emphasis, as of the moment, of the East-West Center. Dr. SPOEHR. In terms of practical availability of visiting faculty, Mr. Seely-Brown, I think undoubtedly it would have to work that way. Mr. SEELY-BROWN. I wanted to make sure that that possibility had not been overlooked. That's all, Mr. Chairman, thank you. Chairman HAYS. Congressman Inouye, in relation to your question yesterday about the document which was sent in and specific answers, I have asked the officials to comment on this in writing at length and in detail exactly what their views are and what they have done to meet this if that is satisfactory to you. Do you have other questions? (See pp. 348-355.) Mr. INOUYE. Yes, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Turnbull, you have discussed in quite some detail the activity of community organizations, private and public, that have contributed to the activities of our Center. We have an organization here called The Friends of the EastWest Center. Would you tell us what sort of activities they carry on? Mr. TURNBULL. I would be very happy to do that and am thankful for the opportunity to mention it here at greater length. In the very beginning of plans for the Center a large number of people in the community offered to us their support and assistance in trying to effect this general idea. We were most grateful for it and we have been working with them ever since to make use of the kind of resources which reside in the people of the State itself. This group has taken on a formal characterization now. It is an organization known as The Friends of the East-West Center. It is headed by a chairman which they themselves have elected; it has a series of subcommittees; it offers to us for |