Governor Johnson is present, and he is the Governor of the Chickasaw Tribe and has been for something like 30 years, I believe. He was elected by the tribe for life. I should like to have him make a brief statement, so that we might have the attitude of the Chickasaws and Choctaws, not only toward this bill but toward all similar bills.

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM JOHNSON, GOVERNOR OF THE
CHICKASAW INDIANS

Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, would it be objectionable, inasmuch as Mr. Cornish has been the attorney for the Chickasaws and the Choctaws for years, that he might make a brief statement in regard to this matter?

The CHAIRMAN. All right, if you wish. Mr. Cornish, you might make your statement.

STATEMENT OF MELVIN CORNISH, ATTORNEY AT LAW,

MCALESTER, OKLA.

Mr. CORNISH. I have represented the Chickasaw Nation for a great many years, and have special employment at this time in cases pending before the United States Court of Claims under the socalled Jurisdictional Act of 1924.

I have no direct connection with this particular matter, but having had the connection I have mentioned with the Chickasaws throughout the years, Governor Johnson requested that I make a brief statement. What I should like to say at the moment is that I think this is more particularly a Choctaw matter, because they have perhaps three-fourths more interest by reason of membership than we have. I happen to know the tribal attorney of the Choctaws, and he has been given authority to come here in their behalf. I would be quite loathe to go into this matter in the absence of the tribal attorney for the Choctaw Nation, and I am sure he will be here later in the day, or if not then, within a day or two, certainly in time for the next committee meeting.

With this brief statement I wish to suggest that no further consideration be given this matter until the Choctaws have an opportunity to be represented and have a statement made for them.

The CHAIRMAN. Governor Johnson, does that meet with your approval?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Further consideration of this subject will be postponed until an opportunity may be had for a hearing. How many members have the Choctaws, Governor Johnson?

Mr. JOHNSON. They have about 30,000 members.

The CHAIRMAN. And how many members have the Chickasaws? Mr. JOHNSON. About five or six thousand. This bill is principally against the Choctaws.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. We will postpone consideration of the bill until the attorney for the Choctaws may be heard.

(Thereupon, at 11: 15 a. m., Monday, May 17, 1937, further consideration of these bills was delayed, subject to a meeting on call of the chairman.)

ENROLLMENT OF ROBERT FIX AND OTHERS, MISSISSIPPI

CHOCTAW INDIANS

THURSDAY, JUNE 10, 1937

UNITED STATES SENATE, COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS, Washington, D. C.

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:30 a. m., in room 424-A, Senate Office Building, Senator Elmer Thomas of Oklahoma presiding.

Present: Senators Thomas of Oklahoma (chairman), Chavez, of New Mexico, Johnson of Colorado, and Frazier, of North Dakota.

Present also: Hon. John Collier, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and Mr. S. M. Dodd, finance officer, Office of Indian Affairs.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee has before it two bills for further consideration, S 998 and S. 2268, introduced by Senator Frazier. The CHAIRMAN. The report on Senate bill 998 is adverse, the last line stating:

I therefore recommend that the bill S. 998 be not enacted.

CHARLES WEST,

Acting Secretary of the Interior. The report on Senate bill 2268 is summed up in the last paragraph, as follows:

I recommend that the bill S. 2268 be not enacted.

CHARLES WEST,

Acting Secretary of the Interior.

At the last session of Congress this subject matter was considered at some length. The second bill, relating to the enrolling of certain members of the Fix family, was considered and acted upon by this committee, but the bill did not receive favorable consideration in the House of Representatives.

Speaking as a member of this committee and as representing, in part, the State of Oklahoma, I wish to state for the record that the Indians in my State are against opening the rolls. This pertains to all tribes, except in very rare instances.

The facts are that the tribal property has been sold and divided, so, as a rule, there is little, if any, tribal property left. Some Indians have little or no tribal property.

The Chickasaws and the Choctaws do have some tribal property in the form of scattered coal and asphalt lands. Those lands were at one time considered very valuable, but because of the discovery of oil and gas and of the wide use of oil and gas, and the diminishing use of coal, their coal lands have diminished in value. There is now little, if any, opportunity for the sale of the coal lands and

not much opportunity for the sale of the coal as produced from the land.

This matter has been up on former occasions, but because the representatives of the two tribes, the Chickasaws and the Choctaws, were not present, the hearings, were postponed from time to time. At the present time we have here Governor Johnston, of the Chickasaw Tribe, and W. A. Durant, of the Choctaw Tribe. We have also here at least one of the attorneys who represent the tribes.

I do not know exactly how the committee wants to proceed. I think that, first, I should like to have the Commissioner of Indian Affairs make a general statement of the policy of the Indian Bureau as to the opening of the rolls, not only in this particular instance but also in all instances.

Senator CHAVEZ. Mr. Chairman, before you proceed, may I ask a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Senator CHAVEZ. I have noticed that a bill was introduced by Senator Frazier. Are these Oklahoma Indians living in Oklahoma now?

The CHAIRMAN. I cannot speak for them.

Senator FRAZIER. Mr. Fix has been in Washington for several years on this particular bill, and the bill has been introduced from time to time at several sessions of Congress. I have introduced it for Mr. Fix.

Senator CHAVEZ. I should like to make a statement which may be able to save time. It seems to me that it has been generally agreed that bills affecting one particular State, or citizens or Indians in one particular State, have a hard time in Congress unless the delegation from that particular State is in favor of them. I was just wondering, under the circumstances, whether the committee would receive any advantage by having a hearing on the particular matter. The CHAIRMAN. I will say to the Senator from New Mexico that there is no chance for this bill or any similar bill to pass.

Senator CHAVEZ. Then, what is the use of having a hearing? The CHAIRMAN. It is being held at the insistence of the claimants and of Senator Frazier. Personally, I am opposed to such legislation and always have been.

Commissioner Collier, we shall be glad to hear from you.

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN COLLIER, COMMISSIONER OF INDIAN

AFFAIRS

Commissioner COLLIER. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, we are humanly very sympathetic toward Mr. Fix, who undoubtedly believes with his whole heart that he is entitled to this recognition. I do not speak with authority based on individual research, but our people who have made the research insist that Mr. Fix does not qualify on any ground, although admittedly he has Choctaw blood. The report gives much detail about that.

You asked me the attitude of the board toward reopening the rolls. Of course, that is a congressional matter. It was Congress which enacted the final rolls. If Congress were convinced that in a specific case an injustice had been done, it would seem to me to

be wholly within the discretion of Congress to authorize that the rolls be not made final for that case but to enroll that case, even though the Commission and the court had found otherwise.

In the present instance, the Department does not believe that the facts justify such action. However, Mr. Fix is here, I believe, as also are the attorneys for the Choctaws, who will present the respective sides.

The CHAIRMAN. At this point, inasmuch as we have the representatives of the tribes present, and inasmuch as they cannot be here indefinitely, I am going to ask that the record show statements from those who represent these tribes.

Governor Johnston, do you care to make a statement in behalf of the Chickasaws themselves relative to the opening of the rolls? Governor JOHNSTON. Mr. Stigler, of the Choctaws, is here.

The CHAIRMAN. And he will speak for the Chickasaws as well? Governor JOHNSTON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We shall be glad to hear from you, Mr. Stigler. STATEMENT OF W. G. STIGLER, REPRESENTING THE CHOCTAW NATION OF INDIANS

The CHAIRMAN. In order that the record may be as complete as possible, please state, Mr. Stigler, your full name and what position, if any, you occupy with relation to the Chickasaw and Choctaw Tribes of Indians.

Mr. STIGLER. My name is W. G. Stigler. I live in Oklahoma. I represent the Choctaw Nation of Indians.

The CHAIRMAN. You are a member of one of the tribes?

Mr. STIGLER. Yes, sir; I am a member of the Choctaw Tribe, regularly enrolled.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand that you are a practicing attorney and that you have served in the State senate of Oklahoma; is that correct?

Mr. STIGLER. For 8 years.

The CHAIRMAN. You were at one time, I believe, the department commander of the American Legion for the State of Oklahoma? Mr. STIGLER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I give that background so that the members of the committee will understand something of the experience of Mr. Stigler.

Mr. STIGLER. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, as was stated by the chairman a moment ago, this matter has been before each session of Congress since 1931. The claimant here, Mr: Fix, came to Washington in about 1930, and ever since that time he has got some Member of Congress, both in the House and in the Senate, to introduce some form of enrollment bill. He has thus far been unsuccessful.

At the last session, as was pointed out by the chairman, extensive hearings were had on this bill. They were printed, and the last hearing held was on April 19, 1935. At that time the merits of his claim were gone into fully. The record which he had was inserted in the record.

In addition to that, hearings were had also by the House Indian Affairs Committee, not only on this bill but on similar enrollment bills. There was one bill, for instance, that the House Indian Affairs Subcommittee considered, involving the application of 399 people to be placed on the Choctaw and Chickasaw rolls. We appeared at that hearing and opposed the bill.

Senator CHAVEZ. Was that the one in connection with which Mrs. Underwood was arrested?

Mr. STIGLER. Yes, sir.

The subcommittee made quite an extensive report to the main committee, recommending that the bill not be passed. Their recommendation was adopted in full by the main committee. That report is now a matter of record before the House Indian Affairs Committee.

We feel that the time has come when agitation for the reopening of our rolls should stop. Our rolls were closed by an act of Congress on March 4, 1907, through an act of Congress of April 1906.

In that act of Congress, Congress told us, and told the world, that our rolls were closed and could not be opened, and that the Secretary of the Interior could not put anyone else on our rolls. Since March 4, 1907, they have been closed. That was almost 30 years ago.

We believe that when the machinery was set up to make our rolls, every adequate opportunity was given all applicants to appear before the commissions that were created for that purpose, and all applicants were given an opportunity to be heard.

This particular applicant's father appeared before the Dawes Commission, which was the commission that heard these enrollment cases. His application was denied.

The Choctaw and Chickasaw people had three requisites for enrollment. The first was blood, the second was tribal affiliation, and the third was recognition by the tribe.

In other words, as the chairman has stated, the Choctaw people, and some of the other five tribes as well, did not want to leave the Southeastern States. They were driven to Oklahoma at the point of a bayonet by the United States Army. Nevertheless, they went to Oklahoma, and there they established their own form of tribal government. They had their house of representatives and senate, similar to our own National form of Government.

The Chickasaws came later. They had their own form of government.

Then Congress provided the machinery for the enrollment of all Choctaws and Chickasaws. Much time and expense was consumed in going into these enrollment matters. Even those who appeared before the Dawes Commission were given an opportunity to appeal to the United States Court if they felt aggrieved, and many of them did.

To give you gentlemen an idea of the magnitude of the duties of this commission, I might state that there were approximately 4,000 to 5,000 applicants who desired to get on our rolls-that is, the rolls of the five tribes. The Choctaws enrolled about 20,000, in round numbers; the Chickasaws, 6,000. But even with those numbers there were more than 100,000 applicants who desired to get on our rolls. The court to which the aggrieved claimants were allowed to appeal began to place so many on the rolls that my people became alarmed,