There are many other difficulties-question of improvements on the land; you may have the land where you built paved streets through it and greatly improved its value in one way or another, and that makes for a difficult problem.

Are you going to do it, are you going to give the right of repurchase only to the original seller, or to his heirs, and so on? And then the administrative problem of searching out these people and locating them and making sure you have located the man who originally sold it before you disposed of it, would be a time-consuming factor which might greatly slow up the process of disposition.

As you know, we have at the present time a very good market for the disposal of surplus lands, and we should like to get on to that job as soon as we can. There are other points that will occur on reflection to make it difficult, but I want to say that I do sympathize with the purpose that Senator Lucas has in mind.

Senator MURRAY. Yes; I can see where it presents a great many problems, and it seems to me that some hearings should be conducted on the bill so as to work out those questions in order to avoid any mistake. If a bill is passed, it would virtually create a lien on the property for the previous holders or owners of the property. Mr. CLAYTON. I imagine that is right.

Senator MURRAY. And some way would have to be provided that if they did not exercise their right to come in and take the property, they would be barred from it and the Government would be entitled to sell it?

Mr. CLAYTON. I should think so, and there would have to be a definite limitation of time.

Senator MURRAY. Well, undoubtedly, there would be some hearings held on the bill, and at that time you will be able to testify further? Mr. CLAYTON. Yes, sir.

Senator MURRAY. Any questions?

Mr. GWYNNE. Mr. Clayton, I have received several letters, of which this one I have is typical. I want to read one sentence or two [reading]:

I note that the National Housing Authority now has the authority to dispose of certain building materials that may result from the wrecking of certain Government housing units that may no longer be needed for the war effort. They are considering a plan to sell this material direct to the consumer.

Then, he goes on to complain that such a policy would be very injurious to his particular group of retail lumber dealers.

Would you care to make any comment on that subject?

Mr. CLAYTON. I would just say that, while I don't know the circumstances surrounding this particular matter about which he writes, that, in general, our policy is to see that this surplus property is disposed of through the regular channels of trade. It is not generally possible for, or feasible for the Government to deal directly with the millions of citizens who are interested in making purchases; and to do so would mean that we would have to set up duplicate organizations of existing dealers and so on, which would not, of course, be

feasible or desirable. And generally, we do work on the basis of disposing of the property through the regular channels of trade.

Mr. GWYNNE. Then, it is not true, as he suggests here, to go on reading, that the policy is being adopted

Mr. CLAYTON. I beg pardon, I am sorry.

Mr. GWYNNE. It is not true, as he suggests, that a policy is being adopted that would put the Federal Housing Authority in direct competition with retail lumbermen of the country, that is not true?

Mr. CLAYTON. I should not say that it isn't true. I will be glad to make a note of it and look into it to see just what action has been taken. But I would say this: That as soon as we can issue our regulations, the N. H. A. will have to declare as surplus any salvage or scrap material that may result from scrapping these houses. They are the agency selected for the sale of the houses, but I doubt if they would be the agency selected for selling the scrap if the houses are wrecked.

Mr. GWYNNE. Now, in connection with the legislation that will eventually be adopted by Congress, do you think it should be the general policy of that legislation to require the disposal of surplus goods, particularly consummable goods, through the regular private channels of trade?

Mr. CLAYTON. I don't think so, and for this reason. I think that that question is just part and parcel of the general question of the type of legislation that we should have. I don't think that legislation ought to run much to details. I think it ought to leave a very wide latitude of discretion to the Administrator because there are so many importabilities in the situation that it is impossible to foresee what will arise in each case or with each commodity. A general expression of preference in certain discussions would be all right, as, for example, that wherever feasible the regular channels of trade should be used.

I have several times given as an illustration of where, in my judgment, the regular channels of trade should not be used-should not have been used and were not used. The example of the sale of Government surplus wool. We had 330,000,000 pounds of foreign wool to sell. It was surplus, and we thought the best way to dispose of it was by auction in Boston, and that is the way we have been selling it. We did not use the regular channels of trade there. It is not necessary to go into the different reasons, I don't think, that prompted us, but we felt that was the best way to sell the wool.

There will be other cases where, for this reason or that, you may want to adopt a different method of disposal than using the regular channels of trade.

Senator MURRAY. There was some thought that the Smaller War Plants Corporation could perform some role in connection with the disposal of surplus property, especially in connection with disposing of it to the smaller concerns of the country. Have you any thoughts on that subject?

Mr. CLAYTON. Yes, sir. I have discussed it at considerable length with Mr. Maverick, the Chairman of the Corporation. I think they can perform a useful service in helping to bring buyers and sellers

together because they are in touch with these smaller plants all the time, and they can inform themselves as to the kinds of property they wish to acquire and keep informed as to what the disposal agencies have for sale; they can perform a service there in bringing the two together, just as we have arranged to do with the Redistribution Bureau of the War Production Board. They have 12 or 13 regional offices all over the United States, and in the disposition of contract termination property, they are performing a very useful service in receiving the lists of the property that is available and in distributing those lists to the people that they know may be interested in buying the property, and generally in trying to bring buyer and seller ⚫ogether.

Senator MURRAY. I should think they could by reason of their contacts with the smaller concerns of the country, keep them advised constantly of the property, the character of the property that might be available.

Mr. CLAYTON. Yes, sir.

Senator MURRAY. What policies do you think should be enacted in regard to the peacetime use of these patents and new processes which have been developed during the war?

Mr. CLAYTON. Mr. Chairman, that is something I just haven't thought about enough to express an opinion. I should like, if I may, to revert a moment to the previous question just to add that in my opinion it is highly desirable to keep at a minimum the number of agencies which will be actually selling this surplus property, actually disposing of it, because, obviously, whenever you add a new agency as a disposal agency you just introduce more confusion and competition, and make it more difficult for me in my job to see that they stay in the line.

Senator MURRAY. Well, I am sure that during the course of your studies there, you will be able to develop ideas regarding the correct policies that should be considered in connection with any legislation, and we will be glad to have you submit to us some statement on the subject later on.

Mr. CLAYTON. Thank you, sir. I should just like to add one other thought, and that is that with reference to Senator Lucas' bill and bills of that character, which are designed for the purpose of giving a preference, that it is very desirable that all such bills, I think, should be incorporated in one measure so that we will know the order of preference. Obviously, if the owner of the land is to have a preference in repurchasing the land, and then some other class of citizen is to have some preference also in respect of their land, all these preferences ought to be set out in one bill so that we will know how to proceed-who has preference number one, and who has preference number two.

Senator MURRAY. I should like to ask, Mr. Clayton, if you could submit a preliminary draft of a bill which would cover the first three points of your suggestions in your statement here this morning. It

is not necessary that you would be bound by them, but an outline of what you think might be the basis of legislation which would cover these three first points you mentioned here.

Mr. CLAYTON. I think the first two would be very easy, Mr. Chairman-we would not have much difficulty on the first two. Number three introduces a very difficult question, that is, these preferences. Senator MURRAY. Well, you could submit some alternative drafts on that, or some general policies that might be considered.

Mr. CLAYTON. I should like to confer with my counsel for a moment. Senator MURRAY. I tell you what you could do, Mr. Clayton. I wish you would examine that and submit to me any statement you think might be helpful. We realize you are in a better position than anyone else to pass on the problems of legislation here and all we want is t have your best advice and assistance in considering the legislative features of it.

Mr. CLAYTON. Thank you, sir. We will try to do that within a short time.

Senator MURRAY. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Clayton, we appreciate your coming.

Mr. Moe, will you state your full name, your residence, your position, and whom you represent?

STATEMENT OF M. P. MOE, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY OF THE

MONTANA EDUCATION ASSOCIATION

Mr. MOE. My name is M. P. Moe, executive secretary of the Montana Education Association, Helena, Mont.

Senator MURRAY. Before you begin your statement, I wish to introduce in the record in connection with your statement a letter from Mrs. C. W. Gross, president of the Montana Congress of Parents and Teachers, in connection with this topic.

(The letter introduced is as follows:)

MONTANA CONGRESS OF PARENTS AND TEACHERS,

Senator JAMES E. MURRAY,
Congress of the United States,

Washington, D. C.

Helena, May 1, 1944.

DEAR MR. MURRAY: The Montana Congress of Parents and Teachers at a meeting of the executive board held on April 27, voted unanimously to instruct M. P. Moe, executive secretary of the Montana Education Association to represent them at the hearing before the War Contract Subcommittee to be held May 5.

We are in favor of that portion of war surplus materials which can be used for training programs in our public schools being distributed to the schools on an equitable basis. We believe that this would be for the mutual benefit of the schools and the public.

We also favor distribution of these materials through the various educational authorities on the various levels-National, State, and local-as these authorities should be best informed as to needs and maximum use to be made of these materials.

Very truly yours,

Mrs. C. W. GROSS, President.

Senator MURRAY. You have given your residence, Mr. Moe?
Mr. MOE. Yes.

Senator MURRAY. I welcome a representative from my home State to appear here before this committee to assist us in this important legislation we have. I am sure you can be helpful to us.

Mr. MOE. I appreciate very much, Senator, the opportunity to be heard. I am sorry that I haven't enough copies to be distributed at this time, but since arriving I have been asked to represent more than just my own State so I have had to revise what I had.

At this hearing I am representing, as an official, the following organizations:

1. The National Education Association, of which I am a vice president and a State director. The Montana Education Association is an affiliate of the N. E. A., as well as 47 other State education associations, altogether aggregating approximately 800,000 teachers in the United States, the District of Columbia, and the Territories.

2. The Montana Education Association, as its executive secretary. 3. The National Association of State Secretaries of Teachers Associations, as its secretary-treasurer.

4. The Montana Veterans' Advisory Board, as its secretary-treas

urer.

5. The Montana district of Kiwanis International, as its immediate past governor and senior member of the State board.

I also represent the following organizations as indicated by the attached letters or copies of letters:

1. The Montana Congress of Parents and Teachers. I believe, Senator, that you have received a letter from Mrs. Gross.

2. The Montana School Boards Association.

3. The Helena Board of School Trustees.

4. The State department of public instruction, Elizabeth Ireland, superintendent, and Harry Norton, supervisor of visual education. 5. Montanans, Inc., the State chamber of commerce.

You will please note that the organizations and individuals represented form a cross section of our people. Had time permitted, I should have had letters for representation from other groups, such as the Montana Federation of Labor and the Montana Congress of Industrial Organizations, both of which are vitally interested in improved educational facilities as well as in the maintenance of production and of employment after the war.

A. It is our belief that materials now being used in the war effort, useful for training purposes in our schools, should be distributed to the schools on an equitable basis and without cost, possibly excepting cost of handling, storage, and transportation. It is impossible at the present time to know just what might be obtainable in surplus materials. 1. These materials would include, by way of illustration, such items as:

(a) Aeronautic equipment, training planes, parts, repair tools, motors, and apparatus suitable for equipping flying fields.