Finally, I would mention, just to round out our overview of the Rann program, the exploratory research area, which is basically concerned with looking as far into the future as we can with reasonable visibility and spotting emerging problems. These might be in the form of trends that may be leading us down an unattractive road from the standpoint of either reduction in the quality of life, whatever form it may take, or trends that may be ominous in terms of too small a rate of increase in economic productivity in the Nation. One of the key thrusts in the exploratory research and problem assessment area is the examination of potential beneficial new technologies, which if brought into the economy, might produce a major increase of productivity without introducing major new pollution or other threats to the quality of life in whatever form they may be. As we move into the future, our major concerns then, to sum up the major thrust of the program, are in the advanced technology areastudy of the energy resources and analysis, which involves looking at all systems, including approaches as well as novel energy sources and applications which tend to cut down on waste heat. In the environment systems and resources area, the big thrust is in the regional systems analysis to better understand the total ecology of the system as it evolves, and thereby provide better guidance to decision making, so that the ecology will not be degraded. In the social systems and human resources, the municipal systems, operations, and services to develop better understanding of the socio-economic, and technical intertwining of those systems, taking all important aspects into consideration for the long-range future. We hope to combine key features of all these in our analysis of regions as total systems. Dr. MCELROY. Mr. Chairman, I should emphasize, as you are well aware, in the past, the Foundation has had primarily through its research division, some of these problem oriented research efforts underway, and we see the need for close management of these problem oriented research efforts. This is the reason we have brought them altogether under one Assistant Director for Research Applications. We feel the Foundation has the experience over the years of looking at problems and the capability of dealing with universities, nonprofit organizations, and even in some cases, industry, to really look at some of these big problems we can forsee down the road. I think the question you raise, in regard to the 50 versus the 80 million dollars involves recognizing that we are not really dealing here with what we consider to be modest research grants of the order of thirty, forty, fifty thousand dollars each. These projects are more expensive than single research grants. If we are going to do the job right, literally put millions of dollars into these programs, then even with $80 million we cannot mount a large number of projects, because each of them will cost a lot of money. As we look down the road, our best estimate, if we were just going to do the Chesapeake Bay effort in the right way over the next few years, we will probably invest on the order of $15 million overall on a wide variety of environmental studies there. Senator KENNEDY. The development of a total environmental study of the Chesapeake Bay that would cost how much? Dr. MCELROY. Let me provide some details for the record on that. (The information subsequently supplied follows:) Chesapeake Bay Research Program To provide a comprehensive base of scientific information that will enable sound land use and resource planning and effective national utilization of the Bay to serve the needs of man; to develop a unified system for organizing and interpreting environmental research data; to make such data available to cognizant agencies, industries, and the public; the following types of studies would be made. Dr. MCELROY. As we study the Chesapeake Bay, we believe the research results will be useful for a whole host of other sites. The impact of such studies will not be limited just to the Chesapeake Bay. We hope that the model which is developed can be used for a number of estuaries and other regions, such as, the Gulf of Mexico, Long Island Sound, because in principle, if we can understand one estuary in great detail, the knowledge we gain can be applied to other sites. Also, I want to emphasize, some people have confused the RANN program as being only applied research. Our best estimate is that about 40 percent of this money will be used in support of basic research, because of the lack of knowledge in the appropriate areas. Senator KENNEDY. How much will be applied? Dr. MCELROY. Probably in the order of 60 percent. Dr. MCELROY. $16 million of the $81 million proposed for RANN is for research in the social sciences. That is approximately 20 percent of the program, sir. Senator KENNEDY. What programs will not be done, if you get the $50 million rather than the $80 million? Dr. EGGERS. Senator, I think we would have to cut back on new starts in the energy resources area, so that some of these technologies would not be explored. Senator KENNEDY. It is terribly important that energy resource development go on. Dr. EGGERS. We consider this to be among our highest priorities. Senator KENNEDY. It is tremendously important. Dr. EGGERS. New starts that we had hoped to develop in the metallurgical area, for the obvious purpose of being able to obtain our raw materials more effectively than we can at the present time will probably have to be postponed if not abandoned. As you know, this extraction metallurgy problem is getting tougher all the time. We would have to cut back on additional new regional and environmental studies. Perhaps I could add a little bit to the discussion earlier on that point. We hope that these studies will have an impact far beyond Federal actions. Indeed, we are insuring that they be particularly useful to State and local authorities, in their own decisionmaking process and private industry too. Finally, we would also have to cut back on our municipal systems activity, and in particular, some of the work we are beginning to move ahead with now, in studying ethnic and minority groups. One example of this is a joint effort between scientists at Stanford University, and a community group in San Francisco, that is trying to raise the area's standard of living. The neighborhood is predominantly of Latin extraction and they are highly motivated, but they do not fully understand the complexities of their economic development problems. The Stanford University team is assisting them in scientifically evaluating everything from the options in terms of available low-cost housing to possible small business development, and to what kind of training they ought to give their young children to have them better prepared for future jobs. The university scientists in the process develop a large body of community data for further research and anal Senator KENNEDY. There is always the que experts at the universities should tell the various minority groups how to upgrade themselves. Dr. EGGERS. Yes, sir. The university team does not tell them what to do. The university team responds to their requests. It is a fairly sensitive relationship. Senator KENNEDY. Is there some kind of joint board in which the minorities participate in the direction of their undertakings? Dr. EGGERS. Yes. This is a coalition of a number of smaller groups called the Mission Coalition. Well, those are the sorts of things we would have to cut back. My feeling in general is that the kinds of moneys we are talking about here are significant, but we are in a learning process now. If we knew how to do these tasks better, I am sure we could spend considerably more money than we are talking about here, and it would be worth every dime we could spend. The real restraint is the rate of progress in learning how to get the job done. I would say one more thing, and I believe this is of significance. We are finding that the mission agencies, like AEC and NASA, are eager to join with us and support us in this undertaking, and in particular in giving us support with the project management type capabilities they have developed over the years. We will find these very valuable to us as we develop our activities further in the various regions throughout the country. At the same time it is particularly noteworthy that we are working closely with the universities to strengthen their capabilities for handling the RANN programs and in the process there is important opportunity for institutional strengthening and advanced education of students in the role of research assistants. Senator KENNEDY. Could you submit a note to us on the terms of the grant. I am sure you have that. I think there was some explanation as to how those $50 or $80 million of resources would be used. I would like to know of some, even with the $80 million budget, which you judge are of value. More important, what would you fund if you get more than the $80 million? That would help us get some idea as to directions, and to the extent that you can provide us with an indication as to the amount of activity is the social sciences, which I am very much interested in, it would be most helpful. I know it is an enormously difficult and sticky area, but it is one which really needs great attention. I am really interested in what comments you could make in these areas. It would be very helpful if you could submit that material. In addition, I have other questions from Senator Prouty. Your response to Senator Prouty's questions will be made part of the record. I want to thank you very much. We will be in contact with you, as we move through the legislative process. We have to draw heavily from your experience and guidance, and we value it very highly. We are hopeful we will be able to work with you in meeting our Nation's responsibilities in this area. You have been enormously helpful to me and to the subcommittee as well. Thank you very much. At this point I order printed the questions from the subcommittee and from Senator Prouty and answers that are to be received from the National Science Foundation. (The material subsequently supplied follows:) NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION Answers To Questions From The Special Subcommittee on NSF Question 1. What activities are being undertaken in the area of marine science? What projects are being developed concerning the coastal areas? Answer: The Foundation sponsors a broad range of oceanographic research Research conducted under the above programs includes studies of marine organisms, the origin and structure of ocean basins, chemical and energy interaction between the sea and the atmosphere, the physical processes that keep the seas in motion, and a host of studies related to environmental quality, environmental forecasting, seabed assessment, and global tectonics. Most of the Foundation's support of oceanographic research is The total NSF involvement in these programs in FY 1970, |