responsibility for representing the Office of Education, have worked together very amicably.

I would suggest this: In any final measure in order to enable us to more intelligently determine the findings, that some limitation should be put in the measures, such as have been suggested here today. For example, as the measure stands at the moment, as I understand it, there would be no restriction against the purchase of land. Now, is it the intention of Congress to enable institutions to purchase land, 50 percent of the cost of which would be borne by the Federal Government, or not?

That is just one question.

Would you think it advisable for institutions to purchase buildings and then remodel them? Senator Ellender, you mentioned the stadium and numbers of other self-liquidating aspects of institutional operation. I prefer self-liquidating to revenue-producing as revenue producing is a much broader term. A laboratory, a physics laboratory, produces a little revenue in fees, but I am sure you wanted to include or did not want to exclude a physical laboratory from consideration, but you might wish to eliminate a stadium or other so-called self-liquidating buildings.

Senator ELLENDER. Do the institutions not charge for breakage in the laboratories, which does not pertain to the building itself? These fees that are collected in a physics laboratory or a chemistry laboratory relate to the breakage expenses, and that does not affect the buildings?

Dr. STUDEBAKER. That is right. There might even be some argument about a stadium, but you will have to use your judgment, and if you do not, we will be forced to use ours and we would always prefer to have some of these features spelled out in a bill.

A second point I just wanted to mention. I do not know how much to press it because we have not made a survey of this aspect of veterans' education. But there will be many people who will say that the same general policies of financial assistance should be recognized with respect to schools of less than college grade. For example, in Puerto Rico, there are 14,000 veterans attending schools and colleges. Ten thousand of them are in junior and senior high schools.

Then there is one third suggestion I would make with respect to the bill itself. However, before making it, I would like to go back to the previous point. I suppose a practical way to do a thing of that sort, if you wished to do it, would be to insert in the measure language that would limit the maximum percentage of the gross appropriation for institutions of college level. It might be, say, 90 percent of it could be used for colleges, reserving a small proportion of the total appropriation to be used in those other institutions of less than college grade. As you know, there are technical schools, trade schools, as well as general schools of less than college grade attended by veterans. The president of the University of Minnesota testified that a large percentage of the schools, such as the School of Technology in the University of Minnesota, enrolled a much larger percentage of veterans than were in the whole institution. The same pressure is coming to be felt by some of the technical institutions of less than college grade. Now one other suggestion and I am through. On page 4 of the measure there is a provision by which, and I quote:

the Administrator is authorized to make such rules and regulations as may be necessary to carry out the provisions of this section.

It might be appropriate to add there, and I do not say this with any personalities in mind because, as I have indicated, our cooperative relationships have been splendid, but we never know who the persons may be who will be involved in these transactions; I would add to that, "subject to concurrence by the Commissioner of Education with respect to rules and regulations concerning the determination of need." The basic measure provides that the Office of Education shall determine the need.

Determining need really requires an institutional survey. Many of the problems discussed here today by members of this committee and witnesses this morning have dealt with the question of how to determine fairly and accurately the need of an institution.

As it has been stated, the program has worked very well.

Senator SMITH. Is that not implied, Doctor, in section 505 on page 2 where it provides that whenever the United States Commissioner of Education finds there exists a shortage, and so on? Would it not fit into that, because if you do not find it, it does not apply?

Dr. STUDEBAKER. It might not be too important. The only thing that has been suggested to me is that in setting up the rules and regulations that would constitute the basis for ascertaining the need, which is our responsibility, that it might be important for concurrence on the part of the Office of Education.

Senator ELLENDER. AS Senator Smith points out, section 505 covers it. You would not want to do that?

Dr. STUDEBAKER. To determine the need? Yes.

I want to say in working out the regulations which the Administrator of the Federal Works Administration has issued, bearing upon the determination of need, there has been the closest collaboration between our offices and the FWA. The only point I was making was about this statement as it stands on page 4, which gives the total responsibility to the Administrator of the Federal Works Agency for establishing those rules and regulations, all rules and regulations. I was merely suggesting that in as much as another part of the measure puts the responsibility on the Office of Education for determining need, it might be appropriate to suggest that with respect to regulations that govern the determination of need, the Office of Education might concur.

Senator ELLENDER. I think your point is well taken, Doctor.

Senator SMITH. I would like to ask just one more question with reference to how the money should be spent. Would you rather provide in the bill that it shall be spent for this and this and this, or except for anything except that and that-exclude certain things like stadiums or gymnasiums or just enumerate what you think it should be spent for.

Dr. STUDEBAKER. I think it would be simpler for the committee, offhand, to insert certain limitations or certain exclusions, quite discreetly, and leave the measure then a rather broad one. But in this particular venture, which is different from the temporary facilities, as you have also been pointing out, it would not be so easy to determine the need. There will be many more discussions and perhaps arguments. I may say that the institutions have been very, very cooperative and we have seen very little evidence of a desire to impose upon the Federal Government to get money, more money than they really need.

As Dr. Morrill just pointed out, Minnesota enrollment has grown by leaps and bounds and I think Dr. Hollis will show you that the proposed measure in square feet will provide a much smaller amount of space over-all for the whole country than is really needed. But I would, Senator Smith, think it perhaps more feasible merely to indicate those features, those phases of facilities that you would wish to exclude, such as self-liquidating aspects or facilities.

Senator ELLENDER. Could you spell that out a little more clearly? Dr. STUDEBAKER. We will be glad to try to give you some help on that and we will file it with your committee.

Senator AIKEN. Thank you, Dr. Studebaker.

Although the Senate has convened, the committee is getting consent to sit long enough to hear the next two witnesses unless, of course, we are interrupted by a roll-call vote, which is not probable, so, Dr. Hollis, will you now take the stand?

(Subsequently Dr. Studebaker submitted the following suggested amendment:)

AMENDMENTS TO S. 971

Suggested by Commissioner of Education John W. Studebaker

(a) Section 505 (a) may be amended by adding the following sentence at the end of the period in line 10: "The purpose of such grants shall be to make available for said veterans during the existing period of high veteran enrollments adequate educational facilities in institutions of higher learning and thus thereby compensate such institutions for the utilization of their facilities in effectuating the objectives of title II of said Servicemen's Readjustment Act.

(b) Section 505 (h) may be amended by substituting a comma for the period in line 5 and adding: "provided that rules and regulations in respect to findings of acute shortages of educational facilities shall first be approved by the Commissioner of Education."

(c) It is suggested that a section numbered 505 (k) be added to read as follows: "505 (k). As used in this section, 'cost of educational facilities' means outlays only for new construction of buildings, and does not include outlays for land, preparation of a site, movable equipment, or for the purchase, reconstruction, or remodeling of existing buildings. The United States Commissioner shall not make a finding of need for a building that is to be financed on a plan whereby net revenue from the operation of the facility will be used to liquidate any part of its initial cost.

STATEMENT OF ERNEST V. HOLLIS, CHIEF, VETERANS' FACILITIES PROGRAM, HIGHER EDUCATION DIVISION, UNITED STATES OFFICE OF EDUCATION

Dr. HOLLIS. I was asked to report a particular survey that we have under way that is not yet complete to see what the colleges themselves report as to their enrollments, their prospective enrollments and their building facilities as they exist and as they plan to develop them.

There has been so much estimating based on small samples that we wanted to go back to the horse's mouth and get it directly from the institutions that educate veterans.

We have up to date a report on 1,167 out of some 1,700 colleges. Senator ELLENDER. That is excluding duplication?

Dr. HOLLIS. Yes. The 1,167 institutions we are sure cover 90 percent of the enrollment in this country. The other 31 percent of the institutions are small and ephemeral in nature and cover not more than 10 percent of the enrollment. We credit them with only 3 percent more veterans than actually show up in the count for the institutions that reported.

Now, I say that so it may be evidence that the figures that I am going to talk about are very conservative figures.

I would like to get one other qualifying note into the figures that I am going to present. I suppose those of you who read bank statements or statements of life insurance companies have found that they are very hard to understand until you have been initiated. Well, reading figures that a pedagogue offers you is even more difficult to understand unless he helps you read between the lines.

Most of the available statistics are reported on a cumulative basis. That is they record how many students enrolled cumulatively for a semester or a school year. And those figures may or may not include, depending upon the intent of the figurer, the part-time and the correspondence student enrollment as well as the full-time students.

The figures I am submitting are the peak enrollment as of the period for which they are given. Therefore, they are immediately and directly related to the need for facilities.

Senator SMITH. You mean full-time students in residence?

Dr. HOLLIS. Yes. The figures represent the peak number of students in residence at the time the college reported.

Senator ELLENDER. Now, Doctor, do the 1,167 colleges that you mentioned a while ago include the institutions of higher learning only and omit elementary schools such as the Puerto Rico one?

Dr. HOLLIS. That is right; only the colleges.

This is made evident in the statement that is being submitted for the record.

Senator AIKEN. All of the prepared statements will be inserted in the record in full and the tables and charts that you have, Doctor, as far as it is practicable to do so, and then we can put the tables and charts in to be printed. I think it would be well to have them included also.

Dr. HOLLIS. Well, I have here first, then, a chart that will answer in part some of the questions that Senator Ellender asked earlier.

Before I start, I can ease the audience's curiosity by giving it a glance at this chart. The red portion of this chart [indicating] indicates veterans' enrollments from 1939 to 1940 projected up there to 1960. Interested members of the audience can see it later.

Now, gentlemen [showing chart to committee], this chart, starting with the year 1939-40, shows the total enrollment at this point [indicating]; this was a million and a half students; and here is the drop-down by 1943-44 [indicating], that shows the trough of enrollment in the war period.

Then enrollment starts an upward trend that by the fall of 1946-47 includes 2,100,000 students.

In the spring of 1946-47, that is where we are now, enrollment has risen to 2,103,000. They could not rise because there simply was no place for a prospective student to go. Actually there was a loss in nonveteran students, and a 3-percent gain in veteran students between the fall and the spring semesters of 1946-47. This means highschool graduates who were eligible to enter college at that time could not do so because the space was given to veterans. No one knows how many veteran s were denied entrance for a lack of college facilities, but the number was large.

Senator ELLENDER. Dr. Hollis, how did you know there were no duplications in the figures given to you by these various colleges?

Dr. HOLLIS. You mean the enrollments?

Senator ELLENDER. Not enrollments, but in the estimates. I think the preceding witness testified that he had no doubt but that there were quite a few duplications in the number of persons asking to go, let us say, to Minnesota. They might have had two or three, to Iowa, New York, or Vermont or to a school over here in New Jersey.

Dr. HOLLIS. You see, these are not merely estimates of the number of people who apply. These are statements of how many people this particular college will take this fall. They may have had 50,000 who applied, but this is a compilation of how many they will accept this fall.

Just as Dr. Morrill told you, despite the fact that 10,000-some-odd had applied, they were only going to expand some two or three thousand this fall and they are making their budget and calculations in terms of that expansion. Now these figures represent the intent of all institutions to do the thing Dr. Morrill said.

Senator ELLENDER. That is based on what-funds for expansion that will be furnished by the State legislature or private funds or just what? Dr. HOLLIS. On the possibility of funds from all of those sources. In other words the colleges cannot admit the people that they say they have intention to admit over the year unless they get the facilities. that they say they must have to take care of this many students.

Senator ELLENDER. Were the provisions of S. 971 taken into consideration in making those estimates?

Dr. HOLLIS. To this extent, that in our survey we asked them three questions: How much space do you have; how much additional space can you provide on your own, in other words, have you got funds in hand or in sight for it, and third, how much facilities additional to that do you need? We did not raise the question of where the funds were coming from, whether from private sources, tax sources, or the Federal Government.

Senator ELLENDER. Would you mind furnishing us a copy of that form for the record?

Dr. HOLLIS. Yes; I will furnish you a copy of the form and also a copy of the responses which shows the situation State by State. Senator ELLENDER. That is in your statement.

Dr. HOLLIS. The form itself is not but I shall be glad to insert it. Senator ELLENDER. It might be of help, Doctor.

Dr. HOLLIS. I am glad you cleared that point.

Senator ELLENDER. There is something that I would like to clarify again. Do you say that it was on what they anticipate getting locally; that is, from the State legislatures; what figure was used as to the amount required to meet this need outside of what they could get locally, or what they could expect to get from the Federal Government? Was any figure fixed?

Dr. HOLLIS. You mean in dollars?

Senator ELLENDER. Yes.

Dr. HOLLIS. No; we simply asked the colleges for information in terms of the amount of space, without raising the question of where the funds are coming from to build it.

Senator ELLENDER. How much would that require to meet the situation, aside from what they expect to get locally?

Dr. HOLLIS. I have those figures and will introduce them. I want to get the general picture over before going into the analysis.

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