If I get the implication of your question, Senator-you suggest that it would be possible for some of these States getting this money to focus it on a comparatively short span of education in terms of age and to make little effort to keep children in school as long as they should.

Of course, that could happen but I doubt it; under the leadership that we have in education today in most of the States, it is unlikely that that would happen. You know, we have some of the finest State superintendents of public education in the whole country and some of the finest State departments of education, strange as it may seem, in some of these States that have the least ability to finance education, and that is due to a series of factors. We will not go into that now, unless you wish, but from what I know of the spirit of the States that are less able to support education, and how hard they are trying to improve their education and get more children in school, I do not think that they would soldier on the job, so to speak, if they are given. substantial sums in terms of census children.

Senator AIKEN. I would not question the records of any State department of education. I think that they are perhaps almost the highest type agency of State departments. It does occur to me that if the money is allocated to a State for education of all children that those children should go to school.

Dr. NORTON. Well, I think one powerful impetus to get all States to improve and extend their compulsory-education laws would be to put more Federal money in those States that need it most, because under the present situation, Senator, the situation works out this way: What is the use of passing compulsory-education laws for children 16, 17, and 18 years of age when you are just barely able to squeeze out enough money to give a miserable schooling to part of your children 6 to 12 and 13 and 14 years of age?

These States are quite as anxious as any others, I am sure, to pass compulsory education laws. Now, of course, it is always possible to put into measures certain restrictions or demands. There are a num

ber in S. 472. But I doubt if this particular one is necessary. I would be perfectly willing to see the bill pass as it is and watch it for 2 or 3 or 4 years and see what happens. Then we can act accordingly.

Senator AIKEN. I agree with you, Doctor, that it should be left to the States to specify the age limits, but I also would say there is an argument for declaring that we should not contribute Federal money to the education of those who are actually in school rather than those who could go to school if they were so minded or required to do so by the State.

Dr. NORTON. That is a fair question and I have indicated my opinion on it. It is possible to have a perfectly honest opinion on each side. I recognize it.

Senator AIKEN. That difference of opinion is not insurmountable. Dr. NORTON. No; I think you are right.

A fourth point that we are very anxious to emphasize is that there should be Federal aid for education since the gross inequalities in the support of schools in the various States can be removed only if Federal aid is provided.

If there is one great fact that has come out in the research of Federal financing of government in the last 20 years, it is that it is fiscally impossible, if not practically impossible, for a considerable number

of our States to finance an adequate program of education solely o their own resources.

Now, this fact has come out from every group that has studied th facts. I have quoted the conclusions of a whole series of investiga tions. They are cited at the bottom of page 9 of my written state ment and I could double this list if I wanted to extend the amount o paper used.

I think I will read one or two of them at the top of page 9, fo example.

Although the States having the least ability to support educatio tend to make the greatest effort in proportion to ability, even with suc effort they are unable to support education at anything like the leve attained, with less than average effort, by the more able States.

There are several other statements but it is beautifully summed u it seems to me, by the Senate Committee on Education and Labor seventy-eighth Congress, in the following words:

There are very great differences in educational opportunity both among a within the States. These differences have been continuous over a long period years, and all of the evidence available indicates that equally great differences wi continue indefinitely into the future until and unless the Federal Governme grants a reasonable amount of aid, at least to those States having the least financis ability to support public education and other public services.

It is dealt with again on page 10 of my statement, but I will no read those various quotations.

Before we leave this first issue of the need, let us sum up briety We have terrific disparities in the support of education. At the bo tom of the scale, children are being denied educational opportunity This denial of educational opportunity has social effects that of country cannot bear to let continue.

Some of those are: The social effects of illiteracy, substandar health, and inadequate training for citizenship. Then the people freez these s'um arees move all over the country, or rengia at home, w some of the resa'ts that we know. In a period

have a trong Nation that corrects all of t. thest these defs is, or those diferen

of ellent

in down at the bottom of the scale režnements for a later period. Once American educat en avd can hold our nd say that every child goes to a school f education, a decent amount of money I think if we want to, we can beg`a taking unt of this factor that you mention. But I think until that time, ld be best to postpets it.

VDs Hation:

nator SMITH. I think you are probably right. But of course I - from a State that would probably be contributing more than it • 1 receive under such a program as this and we have got to justify our people, the whole picture. I want to get on the record on

NORTON. It is well to raise that and other questions, but I think in terms of action they are later questions rather than hate ones. Snator SMITH. I admit that we are facing a development of a y here of having the wealthier sections take care of the educal problems of the entire country irrespective of the rest of the try's ability to pay. I think that is sound. I am for it. I K that all of our country will benefit by the raised standards, wever, in formulating a policy of Federal aid to education whereby wealthier sections of the country are paying for the programs in poorer sections of the country on the principle that we fundatally believe in equality of opportunity for all our people throughthis great land of ours, I am all for that, but I wanted to get that nt clear on the record of what we are doing.

60144-47-pt. 1—5

of our States to finance an adequate program of education solely on their own resources.

Now, this fact has come out from every group that has studied the facts. I have quoted the conclusions of a whole series of investigations. They are cited at the bottom of page 9 of my written statement and I could double this list if I wanted to extend the amount of paper used.

I think I will read one or two of them at the top of page 9, for example.

Although the States having the least ability to support education tend to make the greatest effort in proportion to ability, even with such effort they are unable to support education at anything like the level attained, with less than average effort, by the more able States.

There are several other statements but it is beautifully summed up, it seems to me, by the Senate Committee on Education and Labor, seventy-eighth Congress, in the following words:

There are very great differences in educational opportunity both among and within the States. These differences have been continuous over a long period of years, and all of the evidence available indicates that equally great differences will continue indefinitely into the future until and unless the Federal Government grants a reasonable amount of aid, at least to those States having the least financial ability to support public education and other public services.

It is dealt with again on page 10 of my statement, but I will not read those various quotations.

Before we leave this first issue of the need, let us sum up briefly. We have terrific disparities in the support of education. At the bot-: tom of the scale, children are being denied educational opportunity. This denial of educational opportunity has social effects that our country cannot bear to let continue.

Some of those are: The social effects of illiteracy, substandard health, and inadequate training for citizenship. Then the people from ' these slum areas move all over the country, or remain at home, with some of the results that we know. In a period like this, we should... have a strong Nation that corrects all of these defects; we know that these defects, or these differences in the financing of education,... are based upon great differences in the ability to finance education of the States and we know, finally, that even though the States that have the lower ability to finance education make what would be a supreme effort, compared with what any State has made, they still would not be able to raise enough money. Let us take just one illustration before we leave this. Our calculations in one of the studies reported here, showed that if you would take a model system of State and local taxation and apply it at substantial rates to every State, that there would be some States that could not raise enough money, even though they took all the revenue produced, to finance an educational program at an average national level of cost. They would have to let their roads go, they would have to let their fire departments, their police departments go, just to finance nothing but education. Even using a model system of taxation, and neglecting other public services, there would be enough to finance just an average program of education. Senator SMITH. Do you think the schoolroom unit cost is about the same if you put it on the same dollar basis, or are there variations in different parts of the country in getting that same quality of education? I have had it brought to my attention that after all, probably

the cost per schoolroom in New Jersey is higher than it would be in some other section of the country where you do not have problems of heat and fuel and questions of that kind. Have you considered that in your study?

Dr. NORTON. Yes; we have taken account of it. You are right in your statement, but I think if you would look up all the facts that bear upon it, even though we do not have enough to make a final conclusion, I think you would find that that factor is over-rated in terms of its effect. For example, if you will look at the studies of the National Government that have been made of the cost of living of its civil service employees, you will find a small difference between the cost in a northern State and a southern State. It is not nearly as large as would be expected. After all, you see, you are trying to finance professional people in both places. You do not want anybody in school anywhere that is not trained, that does not want to have a decent standard of living.

Now a decent standard of living, although it may cost a little more in some States than in other States, apparently shows less difference in cost than one would be led to expect.

Furthermore, the really big differences are not between the States. They are within the various areas of any one State, the urban and the rural. Consider, for instance, the difference in the cost of living in New York City and a region back in the Adirondacks. Those differences are really large. But when you average them up for the whole State, the difference between this State on the average and that State on the average is not so large.

However, I think we can afford to omit this particular issue because the need for correcting this situation down at the bottom of the scale is so great. Let us leave these refinements for a later period. Once we get rid of the slum areas of American education and can hold our neads up as American citizens and say that every child goes to a school that has a decent amount of education, a decent amount of money hack of his education; then I think if we want to, we can begin taking account of this factor that you mention. But I think until that time, it would be best to postpone it.

Senator SMITH. I think you are probably right. But of course I come from a State that would probably be contributing more than it would receive under such a program as this and we have got to justify it to our people, the whole picture. I want to get on the record on that.

Dr. NORTON. It is well to raise that and other questions, but I really think in terms of action they are later questions rather than immediate ones.

Senator SMITH. I admit that we are facing a development of a policy here of having the wealthier sections take care of the educational problems of the entire country irrespective of the rest of the country's ability to pay. I think that is sound. I am for it. I think that all of our country will benefit by the raised standards. However, in formulating a policy of Federal aid to education whereby the wealthier sections of the country are paying for the programs in the poorer sections of the country on the principle that we fundamentally believe in equality of opportunity for all our people throughout this great land of ours, I am all for that, but I wanted to get that point clear on the record of what we are doing.

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