Mr. HARTZOG. No, would use the money that he would otherwise pay the Indians for the land here to actually buy land to replace the Indian land here, inside the Indian reservation, with the idea of trying to block out these private holdings within the Indian reservation.

Secretary UDALL. Senator, what happened here, most likely, under the Allotment Act of 1887, this was once all Indian reservation. Much of it was allotted. Only a part of it was kept in tribal ownership, and after it was allotted, a lot of it went into private ownership, so you have a very checkerboard pattern there today, and one of the reasons the Indians have not fared very well is that they don't really own a tract of land there that is large enough to do something significant with. There are various ways that we could help them to block up their holdings, and to actually achieve economic benefits that are not possible under this scattered ownership situation that exists today.

Senator Moss. Well, are these Indians terminated, or are they still under the trustee guardianship?

Secretary UDALL. No, they are still under the trustee relationship. There are small groups.

Senator NELSON. About 350 each.

Secretary UDALL. Of the type that you have in the upper midwest country. Small bands.

Senator Moss. But on rather small circumscribed areas?

Secretary UDALL. That is right.

Senator Moss. There is not any large reservation?

Secretary UDALL. Some of them live there, some live in nearby towns, and there their estate is a rather low one, I am afraid.

Senator NELSON. In that 10,000 acres of sloughs you are looking at, for all practical purposes, nobody lives in there; there are some hunting shacks and fishing shacks in there, but that is all.

Secretary UDALL. Nor are there any economic benefits, other than the marginal ones involved with the activities we have described.

Senator Moss. Any Indian owners on that large tract of land, the one that is left out?

Secretary UDALL. I think the answer to that is no.

Senator NELSON. Not unless it is some individual investor. But no tribal one.

Senator Moss. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator BIBLE. The Senator from Wyoming.

Senator HANSEN. What time of year does this part of Lake Superior freeze over?

Senator NELSON. Harold, can you tell me? I have not lived up there for 25 years, but it is somewhere into November.

Mr. JORDAHL. It would be December.

Senator BIBLE. Would you identify yourself for the record?
Mr. JORDAHL. Mr. Jordahl, Department of the Interior.

Senator HANSEN. I am very much intrigued. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. It is a very excellent statement, Mr. Secretary. Secretary UDALL. Thank you.

Senator BIBLE. The only additional question that I would ask of you, Mr. Secretary or Mr. Hartzog, was the amount of visitation that we have had there in the past few years, during the summer months. Are those figures available through you, or do you have State witnesses who will testify? How many people visited there in June, July, and August of 1966 ?

Mr. HARTZOG. We don't have any figures on that, Senator, but we will try to get some for you.

Senator BIBLE. Well, no doubt there will be figures supplied at the time of the field hearings, so again, I may be premature in questioning. I would just like to know what type of visitation you have annually there now, and how attractive is it to the people who live in the area. You say it serves 50 million persons who live practically next door. I am just interested in knowing how many of those 50 million persons who live next door to Apostle Islands National Lakeshore went there. last year.

Please make a note of that and see that it is entered into the record. Mr. HARTZOG. Yes, sir.

(The information requested is as follows:)

Hon. ALAN BIBLE,

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR,

NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, Washington, D.C., June 5, 1967.

Chairman, Subcommittee on Parks and Recreation, Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs, U.S. Senate, Washington, D.C.

DEAR SENATOR BIBLE: At the May 9 hearing in Washington, D.C., on S. 778, a bill to authorize the establishment of the Apostle Islands National Lakeshore in Wisconsin, the Department's witness was requested to provide the Committee with data on the present visitation to the area proposed for establishment as a national lakeshore.

The report dated May 1965 of the University of Wisconsin on "Apostle Islands Some of the Economic Implications of the Proposed Apostle Islands National Lakeshore," a copy of which is enclosed for the Committee's information gives the results of a traffic count at two locations on U.S. Highway 2, which is the principal access to this area. To summarize the data in table 4 on page 4 of that report, at the Superior counting station 1,470,819 vehicles were counted in 1954; this figure rose to 1,800,328 in 1960; and in 1963 declined to 1,747.764. At the Ashland station the high count was 969,304 in 1959, and in 1963 it was 852,966. Elsewhere in the report it is estimated that the average vehicle contained 4 persons. An assumption appears on page 7 of the report that in 1964 the total overnight usage of the proposed lakeshore area was 30,240 man-days. We appreciate this opportunity to supplement our testimony. Sincerely yours,

FRANK E. HARRISON,
Assistant to the Director.

Senator NELSON. I would like to add one comment on the recreation use. The skimobiling and skiing activity is developing very rapidly in that area. There are a number of ski slopes nearby, and on Madeline Island, where the State owns a thousand acres, there is proposed a large private development that will be usable by skiiers, so there will be lots of winter use in the area.

Senator BIBLE. Mr. Secretary, thank you very much, and Mr. Hartzog, thank you very much.

(The full statement referred to follows:)

STATEMENT OF HON. STEWART L. UDALL, SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR

Mr. Chairman, and Members of the Committee, on January 30, 1967, the President, in his message to the Congress on protecting our natural heritage stated: 66 ** the need for more protected areas is still great. We must make significant additions to our present domain of land and water * * *." As part of a program to meet this demand, President Johnson recommended that the 90th Congress establish the Apostle Islands National Lakeshore in Wisconsin; he stated that this would "* ** add a superb string of islands to our national seashore system".

The enactment of S. 778, with the amendments recommended in our report of February 18, will carry out the President's recommendation.

This Committee is well aware of the limited supply of public outdoor recreational facilities available across the country, and the ever-increasing demand for them. The problem is especially acute in and around our urban population concentrations. Establishment of this almost 91,000 acre Apostle Islands National Lakeshore would be a significant step forward in alleviating this problem, as there are 52 million people within the Great Lakes region, and more than 5 million people within a 250-mile radius of the area. The cities of Milwakuee, Chicago, Detroit and the Twin Cities of Minneapolis-St. Paul are only hours away from the Apostle Islands, and the national lakeshore will be within easy reach of the major metropolitan areas of the entire upper midwest. We estimate that by 1970, some 920,000 persons will visit the Apostle Islands annually for recreational purposes.

The areas we propose for this national lakeshore include the Apostle Islands unit, comprising a group of 21 islands in Lake Superior that form an archipelago extending 30 miles long and 80 miles wide; the Red Cliff unit, a strip of highlands along Lake Superior less than a half-mile wide and about 30 miles long; and the Kakagon-Bad River Sloughs unit-a long sand spit fronting on Lake Superior. The national lakeshore will include 57,511 acres of land, and 33,050 acres of water.

The 21 Apostle Islands are the main feature of this proposal; they are heavily forested and range in height from 50 to almost 500 feet above the lake surface. Except for some logging and quarrying, there is little human activity on these islands. They are an ideal potential outdoor recreational resource.

Visitors and recreational users will reach the islands by boat, ski-equipped aircraft, or private excursion boats which will also operate day trips around the islands.

Mr. Chairman, our public recreation development program for the Apostle Islands National Lakeshore will be designed to afford optimum recreational benefits and enjoyment, and as a complement to active recreation, the natural beauty will be preserved.

Since most of the Red Cliff and Kakagon-Bad River Sloughs units of the lakeshore are within the Red Cliff and Bad River Indian Reservations, respectively, the bill contains a number of provisions with respect to Indian interests. The bill provides that the lands within the lakeshore held in trust for the Red Cliff or Bad River bands may be acquired only with their consent.

Some of the Indian tribal lands are essential to the proposed lakeshore, and we will need to acquire them before the lakeshore is established. We will not proceed with the project until we have obtained the consent of the Indian Tribes to the acquisition of these lands. Under the amendments we propose to S. 778, we may pay the purchase price of the Indian lands on an installment basis, plus interest on unpaid balances. The purchase of the Indian land on an installment basis will assure the Indians a continued annual income for a number of years. By the time the installment payments are completed, the national lakeshore will be fully developed and will provide the Indians an opportunity to capitalize on the economic potential associated with providing visitor services and accommodations. The standards which the Secretary would prescribe pursuant to section 5(e) of S. 778 would assure that Indian-operated concessioner facilities would be held to the same standards as would be the case if those facilities were to be operated by any other operator.

Other Indian tribal lands located within the proposed lakeshore boundaries are not essential to its establishment. If the Indian bands are unwilling to sell a fee simple title to such lands, the purchase of easements or other interests may be sufficient to meet our requirements for administering the lands as part of the lakeshore. Again, our proposal for the payment of the purchase price of the Indian interests on an installment basis will assure them a continued annual income for a number of years.

Other amendments recommended in our report permit Indians to hunt, fish, trap, and gather wild rice on lands acquired for the lakeshore which are within the Indian reservations add the usual land exchange provisions included in recent bills of this type; and revise the lakeshore boundary to include adjacent water areas.

The Advisory Board on National Parks, Historic Sites, Buildings, and Monuments considered this proposal, and recommended the establishment of Apostle Islands National Lakeshore in October 1965.

We do not yet have adequate cost data to supply today, Mr. Chairman; however, I am told that we will be able to supply this information to you by June 1.

Thank you very much.

Senator BIBLE. Our next witness is Louis S. Clapper, chief of the Conservation Education Division, National Wildlife Federation. Mr. Clapper, good to see you again.

STATEMENT OF LOUIS S. CLAPPER, CHIEF, CONSERVATION EDUCATION DIVISION, NATIONAL WILDLIFE FEDERATION

Mr. CLAPPER. Good morning, sir. I have a very brief statement here, Mr. Chairman. By way of identification, the National Wildlife Federation is a private nonprofit association which seeks to attain conservation goals through educational means.

The federation has affiliates in 49 States, and these in turn are composed of local organizations and individuals.

We appreciate the invitation and opportunity of appearing here today. Mr. Chairman, the National Wildlife Federation long has supported the principle of preserving areas of suitable quality and size for purposes of public outdoor recreation and education.

We have contended that areas with outstanding significance should be set aside for this public use and enjoyment-and as soon as possible in order to avoid escalating land costs. In this context, we have supported the preservation of wildernesses and wild rivers, and the establishment of the Land and Water Conservation Fund, and the several individual seashore, lakeshore, park and recreation area proposals which have come before the subcommittee at an earlier time.

In fact, the federation specifically endorsed establishment of the Apostle Islands National Lakeshore during the annual convention held in 1966 and a copy of the pertinent resolution is attached in the hope it may be made a part of the testimony. Senator BIBLE. That will be the order.

(The document referred to follows:)

RESOLUTION OF THE NATIONAL WILDLIFE FEDERATION

APOSTLE ISLANDS NATIONAL LAKESHORE

Whereas the Apostle Islands and adjacent mainland in Wisconsin is an area of largely unspoiled natural beauty not excelled on the Great Lakes; and Whereas proposals before the Congress would create an Apostle Islands National Lakeshore to be developed and administered by the National Park Service; and

Whereas this area would provide significant recreational opportunities to people of the Nation among the islands and along the shoreline of Lake Superior, largest fresh water lake in the world: Now therefore be it

Resolved, That the National Wildlife Federation, in annual convention assembled March 12, 1966, at Pittsburgh, Pa., hereby endorses the establishment of the Apostle Islands National Lakeshore in the firm belief that it will be a significant addition to the Nation's public outdoor recreational assets.

Mr. CLAPPER. I should add here that the Wisconsin Wildlife Federation also has endorsed the principle of the lakeshore, and officials of this group, we understand, plan to so testify in the field hearings. The Wisconsin federation is the official State affiliate of the National Wildlife Federation in that fine State.

Since members of the subcommittee plan to visit the Apostle Islands area personally and have other details through publications and other materials and testimony there is little point in us describing the many assets of the proposed lakeshore.

In substance, then, we believe the Apostle Islands are magnificent examples of natural resources in a unique setting and should be preserved and made available for a wide variety of public uses.

The establishment of a national lakeshore will provide such benefits and, at the same time, offer economic stability to that part of Wisconsin.

We believe S. 778 accomplishes the desired purpose of establishing the lakeshore. We agree that the Secretary of Interior should acquire the lands as outlined in the bill, with full consideration being given to the State, the Indian, and the private landowners.

We believe the interests of these others are fully safeguarded through provisions in S. 778.

The National Wildlife Federation is particularly pleased to note the wording in section 8(a), which provides that hunting, fishing, and trapping shall be permitted under provisions of State law.

For the record, we cannot conceive of any emergency which would not allow the National Park Service time to consult with State authorities before putting any restrictive regulations into effect.

In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, we hope the subcommittee can soon issue a favorable report upon S. 778 in order that the establishment of the Apostle Islands National Lakeshore can become an early conservation accomplishment of the 90th Congress.

We appreciate the opportunity of making these remarks.

Senator BIBLE. A very fine statement, Mr. Clapper. It is always wonderful to get the position of the National Wildlife Federation. I know of the wonderful work that your group does.

Mr. CLAPPER. Thank you, sir.

Senator BIBLE. The Senator from Wisconsin.
Senator NELSON. No questions, sir.

Senator BIBLE. The Senator from Wyoming?

Senator HANSEN. I am just trying to find section 8. You spoke about the hunting in there. That would be a concession to the Indians, or to the people generally, as licensed by the State?

Mr. CLAPPER. This would just come under the regular State law, sir, is what we have reference to. I think this section largely was worked out, if the chairman will permit; back when the Ozark Scenic Rivers bill was first established, and this language has been made rather uniform in most of the park recreational areas and seashore and lakeshore bills, and we approve of it.

Senator HANSEN. I have nothing further.

Senator BIBLE. I think that is right. This is almost standard language now.

Mr. CLAPPER. Yes, sir.

Senator BIBLE. As to hunting, fishing, and trapping on lands and waters within lakeshores, there has evolved, by a lot of trial and error, almost standard wording which has worked out very well. I thank you, Mr. Clapper.

Mr. CLAPPER. Thank you.

Senator BIBLE. Our next witness is Robert Dennis, assistant conservation director of the Izaak Walton League.

Mr. PENFOLD. Mr. Chairman, we have a little change in people. I am J. W. Penfold.

Senator BIBLE. Yes, I recognize you, Joe. I noticed you were hiding under a different name. I have always known you as Joe Penfold.