Let me just say that I retired in 1987 after 26 years of law enforcement experience, nine of which were spent with a tactical unit as both a SWAT team leader and later as a SWAT commander in overall charge of all eight of the Department SWAT teams at that time. I had occasion over the years to work with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms many, many times. I have always found them to be a highly dedicated professional group of men and women who, in my opinion, do an extremely difficult job very well. I don't see this, based upon my review of the countless documents and videotape and other documents that were provided to the panelists to review, as any kind of a conspiracy to fail. These are professional men and women. Were there deficiencies in the operation? Absolutely. But to their credit, ATF has done everything within their power, in my opinion, to accept the recommendations of the review and the panelists and have taken very positive steps to change for the better. I think what they need from this committee and the American people are their support. I think there has been a lot of misinformation in these hearings. I just wish that I would have had an opportunity to help you clarify them, but whether I was on the wrong panel or people just didn't like me and didn't want to ask questions, I don't know. Mr. ZELIFF. I certainly like you, because that is why I gave you the opportunity to respond. Mr. KOLMAN. That was very kind of you. Mr. ZELIFF. I will tell you, frankly, it is a very difficult task that we have before us. I don't think there is anybody on either side of the aisle here that doesn't have anything but the absolute top respect for our law enforcement folks that deal with us and our safety day in and day out. And what we are dealing with here is where mistakes made and it could be at the highest levels. It could be at the management. There are many, many loyal people just doing what they are told to do in their willingness to serve and give us their commitment. In four cases, four ATF agents died in their commission and commitment to service. And so out of respect for them, out of respect for our country and the balance of power and the role of oversight and the fact that no one is above the law, I think what these hearings are trying to do very desperately is to get at the bottom of what really happened. Somehow if there were mistakes made, I think the American people are very forgiving. They will forgive those mistakes. Let's fix the problem if there is a problem. Let's go on and close the book. Let's then have the credibility back in place for our law enforcement. That is what we need. That is our goal as well. These hearings now conclude at the end of the third-go ahead. Mr. TAYLOR. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Kolman has indicated both to me and to you that he obviously has something he wants to get off his chest. I realize people want to catch planes. I would ask, in fairness, that he be given unanimous consent to put his statement, whatever that statement is, in the record, since we all are in a hurry to go catch planes and get back to our homes. Mr. ZELIFF. Without objection, so ordered. I assumed that all of them heard this and you may have been out of the room. Everybody's statements are included in the record and any material that anybody would like to include. So, without objection, so ordered. Mr. ZELIFF. The hearing is adjourned. We will reconvene on Monday morning at 9:30-sorry, it is 10. [Whereupon, at 7:02 p.m., the subcommittees adjourned.] ACTIVITIES OF FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES TOWARD THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS (Part 1) MONDAY, JULY 24, 1995 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, Washington, DC. The subcommittees met, pursuant to notice, at 10:15 a.m., in room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Bill McCollum (chairman of the Subcommittee on Crime) presiding, and Hon. William H. Zeliff, Jr. (chairman of the Subcommittee on National Security, International Affairs, and Criminal Justice). Present from the Subcommittee on Crime: Representatives Bill McCollum, Steve Schiff, Stephen E. Buyer, Howard Coble, Fred Heineman, Ed Bryant of Tennessee, Steve Chabot, Bob Barr, Charles E. Schumer, Robert C. Scott, Zoe Lofgren, Sheila Jackson Lee, and Melvin L. Watt. Present from the Subcommittee on National Security, International Affairs, and Criminal Justice: Representatives William H. Zeliff, Jr., Robert L. Ehrlich, Jr., Steven Schiff, Ileana RosLehtinen, John L. Mica, Peter Blute, Mark E. Souder, John B. Shadegg, Karen L. Thurman, Robert E. Wise, Jr., Gene Taylor, Tom Lantos, Louise McIntosh Slaughter, Gary A. Condit, and Bill K. Brewster. Also present from the Committee on the Judiciary: Representative Henry J. Hyde and John Conyers, Jr. Also present from the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight: Representatives William F. Clinger, Jr., and Cardiss Collins of Illinois. Staff present from the Subcommittee on Crime: Paul J. McNulty, chief counsel; Glenn R. Schmitt, counsel; Daniel J. Bryant, assistant counsel; Audray L. Clement, clerk; Committee on the Judiciary: Alan F, Coffey, Jr., general counsel/staff director; Dan Freeman, parliamentarian; Julian Epstein, minority staff director; Perry Apelbaum, minority general counsel; Melanie Sloan, minority counsel; and Tom Diaz, minority counsel. Staff present from the Subcommittee on National Security, International Affairs, and Criminal Justice: Robert Charles, staff director and chief counsel; T. March Bell, counsel for justice affairs; L. Stephan Vincze, defense counsel; Marshall Cobleigh, senior policy advisor; Michele Lang, special counsel; Sean Littlefield, special assistant and clerk; Committee on Government Reform and Oversight: Kevin Sabo, general counsel; Judith McCoy, chief clerk; Jeffrey Wilmot, professional staff member; Bud Myers, minority staff director; David Schooler, minority chief counsel; Ronald Stroman, minority deputy staff director; Donald Goldberg, minority assistant to counsel; Cherri Branson, minority professional staff member; Ellen Rayner, minority chief clerk; Cecelia Morton, minority office manager; and Eddie Arnold, public affairs officer. Mr. MCCOLLUM. This hearing will come to order. I would like to ask the witnesses that are here to be seated. We are going to have the four opening statements that we have each morning before we swear the witnesses and introduce you. Please join us and we will get started on these hearings. I am going to start the discussion this morning. I would like to make my opening statement. We begin day four of these hearings by focusing on the day of the ATF raid, February 28, 1993. Our witnesses are those who actually participated in and directed the raid. Later today we will finish our examination of the Treasury Department's part of the Waco story by receiving the testimony of Ron Noble, Under Secretary for Law Enforcement at the Treasury Department, and John Magaw, the current Director of ATF. I have a couple of thoughts to share with you this morning. After listening to the President's Chief of Staff, Leon Panetta, discuss the Waco hearings on "Face the Nation" yesterday, I realized how trivialized these hearings are in danger of becoming as a result of the administration's political overreaction to them. The events of Waco in 1993 were tragic; 90 Americans, including 22 children and 4 ATF officers, were killed, and many more wounded. All of America was stunned. Today, I share the sorrow of Waco with the families of those killed and wounded. These hearings were and are designed to allow our Nation to fully vent the pent-up feelings of sorrow, dismay, and anger that arose from the ashes of Waco; to do the first and only comprehensive congressional review of what happened at Waco; to debunk outlandish conspiracy theories, but at the same time to hold all of those responsible publicly accountable; and to begin the process of healing necessary to restore confidence and credibility in two of our key Federal law enforcement agencies. Apparently out of fear that the revelations in these hearings could damage the Clinton Presidency, the White House, Congressman Schumer, and some at Treasury and Justice set out this past week to ridicule, trivialize, and discredit these hearings. First, a political operative was hired by the White House just for Waco political damage control. Then the line was put forward that these hearings were being held just to please the National Rifle Association, that somehow they were tainted. By the end of the week, the President's press spokesman, Mike McCurry, said quote, the NRA bought and paid for these congressional hearings, unquote. Whatever one thinks of the NRA, this is just plain political hog wash. |