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necessary to reach the stated conclusions and that the

information was accurate and presented fairly.

Needless to say,

this process was long and arduous and I feel that only fully committed individuals with a strong belief in fairness and the pursuit of the truth could have completed the process.

The Report of the Department of the Treasury on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Investigation of Vernon Wayne Howell, also known as David Koresh, is partly the product of a group of committed individuals who worked countless hours, spent many days away from their home and family, and who endeavored to get at the truth that would answer the questions raised in the aftermath of the failed attempt to serve the warrants. It is partly the product of a government that insisted, that a group such as this be formed and then mandated it to find the truth. But it is mostly the product of the men and women of the ATF, who came forward willingly to tell their story and who told their story without regard to any self interest or fear of

repercussions in order that the death of their comrades in arms will not have been in vain, and that their agency learn from the mistakes made and become a stronger organization.

Therefore, I stand by the solid, time tested integrity of

the report, as do my seventeen fellow investigators, and I look forward to the Committees affirmation of this Review.

Mr. MCCOLLUM. The time is gone, except for one-what do you want, a clarification, Mr. Zeliff?

Mr. ZELIFF. Mr. Chairman, I want one quick point of clarification. Minority has brought it to our attention and I think it is only right to correct.

I believe Mr. Mica had indicated that we did not get, earlier today, the two personnel files of both of you. I understand that we have now received them. I just want to make that point.

Mr. MCCOLLUM. Well, I want to thank you for that.

Mr. BREWSTER. Mr. Chairman. Could I ask just one 30-second question?

Mr. MCCOLLUM. You may, without objection.

Mr. BREWSTER. You have mentioned McDonald's twice, and that there was apparently a plan by the Davidians to go raid a McDonald's or something.

I have not read that anywhere else, anywhere, or heard the testimony from anyone else. Are the rest of you aware of that, as well? Mr. SARABYN. I think the Jahns discussed it when they testified earlier.

Mr. BREWSTER. I am sorry?

Mr. SARABYN. I think the Jahns discussed it when they testified earlier.

Mr. MCCOLLUM. Mr. Brewster, if I may, Mr. Buford clarified that by saying that he heard about it after the raid was over with. They did not know about this plan, or it was Kathy Schroeder, I believe you said, Mr. Buford, who had said something like this. But, this was all after the fact.

Mr. BREWSTER. This was after the raid.

Mr. MCCOLLUM. It did not have any effect on their decision, because they didn't know anything about it before the raid.

Mr. BREWSTER. Thank you.

Mr. MCCOLLUM. I want to thank all of you for coming. I know how trying it is. Two or three of you will be back with us, again. I don't know if you will, Mr. Buford, we have discussed that.

But in any event, we really appreciate as much time as you have put in, as late as you have, tonight.

Not to mention the fact that we understand, despite all of the difficulties of our questioning, what you went through with respect to this raid.

Anyway, tonight's hearings, and this panel's testimony, is concluded. We are in recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30 a.m., here in this hearing room.

[Whereupon, at 11:11 p.m., the subcommittees adjourned.]

ACTIVITIES OF FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES TOWARD THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS

(Part 1)

FRIDAY, JULY 21, 1995

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, SUBCOMMITTEE ON NA-
TIONAL SECURITY, INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS, AND CRIMI-
NAL JUSTICE, COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM
AND OVERSIGHT, JOINTLY WITH THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON
CRIME, COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

Washington, DC.

The subcommittees met, pursuant to notice, at 9:40 a.m., in room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. William H. Zeliff (chairman of the Subcommittee on National Security, International Affairs, and Criminal Justice) presiding and Hon. Bill McCollum (chairman of the Subcommittee on Crime).

Present, from the Subcommittee on National Security, International Affairs and Criminal Justice: Representatives William H. Zeliff, Jr., Robert L. Ehrlich, Jr., Steven Schiff, Ileana RosLehtinen, John L. Mica, Peter Blute, Mark Souder, John B. Shadegg, Karen L. Thurman, Robert E. Wise, Jr., Gene Taylor, Tom Lantos, Louise McIntosh Slaughter, Gary A. Condit, and Bill K. Brewster.

Present from the Subcommittee on Crime: Representatives Bill McCollum, Steven Schiff, Stephen E. Buyer, Howard Coble, Fred Heineman, Ed Bryant of Tennessee, Steve Chabot, Bob Barr, Charles E. Schumer, Robert C. Scott, Zoe Lofgren, Sheila Jackson Lee, Melvin L. Watt.

Also present from the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight: Representatives William F. Clinger, Jr., Cardiss Collins of Illinois, and Gene Green.

Also present from the Committee on the Judiciary: Representatives Henry J. Hyde and John Conyers, Jr.

Also present: Representative Chet Edwards.

Staff present from the Subcommittee on National Security, International Affairs and Criminal Justice: Robert Charles, staff director and chief counsel; L. Stephan Vincze, defense counsel; T. March Bell, counsel for justice affairs; Marshall Cobleigh, senior policy advisor; Michele Lang, special counsel; Sean Littlefield, special assistant and clerk; Committee on Government Reform and Oversight: Kevin Sabo, general counsel; Judith McCoy, chief clerk; Jeffrey Wilmot, professional staff member, Bud Myers, minority staff director; David Schooler, minority chief counsel; Ronald Stroman, mi

nority deputy staff director; Donald Goldberg, minority assistant to counsel; Cherri Branson, minority professional staff member; Ellen Rayner, minority chief clerk; Cecelia Morton, minority office manager; and Eddie Arnold, minority public affairs officer.

Staff present from the Subcommittee on Crime: Paul J. McNulty, chief counsel; Glenn R. Schmitt, counsel; Daniel J. Bryant, assistant counsel; Audray L. Clement, clerk; Committee on the Judiciary: Alan Coffey, general counsel/staff director; Dan Freeman, parliamentarian; Julian Epstein, minority staff director; Perry Apelbaum, minority general counsel; Melanie Sloan, minority counsel; and Tom Diaz, minority counsel.

Mr. ZELIFF. Good morning. The joint hearings of the Oversight Subcommittee on National Security, International Affairs, and Criminal Justice and the Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime will now come to order.

Mr. LANTOS. Mr. Chairman, I have a parliamentary inquiry.

Mr. ZELIFF. The gentleman will state his parliamentary inquiry. Mr. LANTOS. Chairman, for the last 3 days some of us who are concerned about the integrity of these hearings and about the cloud that still hangs over the involvement of the National Rifle Association have requested that NRA individuals who were surreptitiously—

Mr. ZELIFF. Will the gentleman state his parliamentary inquiry? Mr. LANTOS. I am attempting to and I hope the chairman will not attempt to muscle me.

I would like to state an inquiry and I would like to do so uninterrupted. For the last 3 days we have requested that NRA individuals who were surreptitiously involved in the preparation of these hearings and there is a New York Times story which I think you would wish to address because it goes directly to your involvement

Mr. ZELIFF. The gentleman is not stating

Mr. LANTOS. I am stating my parliamentary inquiry. We were told by the chairman yesterday and by you that you will consult with your leadership before you respond to our request that NRA officials involved in the preparation of this hearing be invited to testify under oath.

My inquiry, Mr. Chairman, is at what point will this happen?

Mr. ZELIFF. Well-we discussed with the leadership the decision that we made relative to that request and they have concurred with our judgment. We are not going to have subpoenas of either NRA or other outside groups. We are really here to get to the bottom of what happened at Waco and that is what we are going to do.

Mr. LANTOS. Mr. Chairman, I have not used this term until now, but now I am afraid we are confronting a coverup, the coverup of the involvement of the National Rifle Association in the preparation of this hearing, which I think is most regrettable and I hope you will reconsider your decision.

Mr. ZELIFF. Thank you. I don't believe you are stating a parliamentary inquiry

Mr. MICA. Mr. Chairman, I have a parliamentary inquiry.
Mr. ZELIFF. The gentleman will state it.

Mr. MICA. I presented to you, Chairman Zeliff, and Chairman McCollum, a request this week and I, too, am concerned about the impact of outside influence on the integrity of these hearings. Specifically, I have expressed grave concern about the potential irreparable contamination of the hearings, by what I consider very serious and questionable actions of the Clinton administration and the members of the Democratic minority.

I presented to you a request

Mr. ZELIFF. Please state your parliamentary inquiry.
Mr. CONYERS. Regular order, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. MICA. I presented subpoenas for Mr. Podesta who is counsel to the President and for other administration officials who I believe are involved in a coverup, and if the minority insists on subpoenaing and expanding the content of this hearing, I insist that action be taken on my request and my parliamentary inquiry is, when will there be action to see that the outside influences and the concerted effort by the administration and their officials to cover up what is going on on their side of the aisle and thus what the administration is doing? When is that going to be addressed?

Mr. ZELIFF. The same thing applies. We are not going to get involved with subpoenas of outside interests of any kind at this point. Mr. MICA. I have another request, sir

Mr. SCHUMER. Can we make a one-for-one trade with a player to be named later?

Mr. ZELIFF. That little bit of humor is welcome, Mr. Schumer. Thank you very much for setting the stage for cooperation.

I would like to finish opening if I can. We have some very important witnesses that we would like to get to who have come from pretty far away. We respect their time.

I would like to welcome the public, my friends on the Oversight and Judiciary Subcommittees, full committee chairs and ranking members. I would also like to welcome our cochairman, Chairman Bill McCollum of Florida. I know he is enjoying these marathon hearings, 12 or 13 hours, didn't move from the Chair last night, but we are making good progress.

For all those present today, this is the third day of congressional oversight hearings of the executive branch conduct involving the 1993 confrontation with the Branch Davidians near Waco, TX. These hearings will host almost 100 witnesses.

These are the result of an extraordinary effort on the part of all participating members and are intended to address basic Government agency accountability and to help all of us understand better what happened at Waco and why, particularly on or near February 28 and April 19. These hearings are, as we have stated on both sides of the aisle, unswervingly devoted to one task; finding the truth and fairly presenting it to the American people.

Since we had some difficulty getting concurrence in an agreement previously reached by the majority and minority leadership, we will proceed according to the 5-minute rule today as we did yesterday. I should also explain that I am in the Chair today as a result of an agreement between Chairman McCollum and myself. Over the 8 days of hearings we are swapping the duties of the Chair on a daily basis. By separate agreement we are today in the

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