Mr. BARR. These certainly will be looked into, further. I thank the chairman, and I thank Mr. Johnston.

Mr. ZELIFF. Thank you. I think what we're going to anybody know how long this vote's going to be? One 15-minute vote? OK. We're going to recess for 15 minutes. We have a vote, we'll be right back.

[Recess.]

Mr. ZELIFF. The committees will come to order. The Chair recognizes Mr. Schumer from New York for 15 minutes.

Mr. SCHUMER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank all the witnesses for being here. I have a whole series of questions, but I would like to make one point first. I'm sorry most of my colleagues on the other side aren't here. We've heard a lot of talk about faulty warrants, search warrants. And, you know, that it might-some "I" might not have been dotted, some "T" might not have been crossed. If I'm not mistaken, these are the same folks, my colleagues to the right here, who voted to eliminate the need for search warrants with the good faith exception to the exclusionary rule. Now I think that's, you know-I didn't support that. I can see an argument, but it does strike me as a little strange that just a few months ago people voted that there should be good faith.

No one doubts the good faith of the people here, and yet here we're making a huge fuss about warrants not being perfect. It's the topsy-turvy nature of this hearing altogether. It's my belief that, as I said in my opening statement, that this idea of moral equivalence, that, well, here we have Koresh and here we have ATF and FBI and they're sort of the same. They've each made some mistakes. Maybe ATF is the villain or FBI is the villain and Koresh is a misunderstood guy; is going to lead the other side into trouble throughout these hearings if that's their view, and it seems to me that is in many ways.

Now I'd like to ask first, Mr. Aguilera, some questions. I want to focus on the warrant. First of all, Mr. Aguilera, how many warrants have you put together in your career as an ATF investigator? Approximate.

STATEMENT OF DAVEY AGUILERA, SPECIAL AGENT, BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS

Mr. AGUILERA. Approximately 30 or more.

Mr. SCHUMER. Thirty. Have any ever been thrown out?

Mr. AGUILERA. No, sir.

Mr. SCHUMER. So you've had a 100-percent record in putting together decent warrants?

Mr. AGUILERA. Yes, sir.

Mr. SCHUMER. Warrants at least that met the tests that courts impose?

Mr. AGUILERA. Yes, sir.

Mr. SCHUMER. Thank you. And let me ask you this. What made you initiate the investigation of the possible manufacture of machineguns and explosive devices by Koresh and other members of the Davidians in the compound in Waco, and from whom did you receive the information?

Mr. AGUILERA. I received

Mr. SCHUMER. What got you into this, is the vernacular question.

Mr. AGUILERA. I received the information from Lt. Gene Barber from the McLennan County Sheriff's Office.

Mr. SCHUMER. This didn't come out of your head or some higher up in Washington or anything like that, this came from local law enforcement?

Mr. AGUILERA. Yes, sir.

Mr. SCHUMER. And they don't call you very often to do something like this, do they?

Mr. AGUILERA. No, sir.

Mr. SCHUMER. This was because of the extreme nature of what Mr. Koresh was doing?

Mr. AGUILERA. That's correct.

Mr. SCHUMER. OK. In your experiences, do people generally order cases and cases of grenade casings and then order metal parts and the, what's it called, nitrate? No, makes aluminum nitrate, I guess hydrogen nitrate or ammonium nitrate.

Mr. AGUILERA. Potassium nitrate.

Mr. SCHUMER. Potassium nitrate, thank you. Do they do that? I mean do they do that unless usually they have some kind of bad purpose in mind?

Mr. AGUILERA. No, sir, not usually.

Mr. SCHUMER. You don't need, just to clarify for the record, you don't need ammonium nitrate or magnesium or aluminum powder to help a paperweight?

Mr. AGUILERA. No, sir.

Mr. SCHUMER. No. The casing alone might suffice for the paperweight. I thought so. Let me even Mr. Zeliff is smiling at that question. Mr. Barr is not here. I wanted him to hear it, too. But in any case-OK. Let me—I'm on a roll, right.

Well, it's not hard to be on a roll when the facts are on your side. In any case, let me ask you, other than arms dealers, we saw one of the arms dealers, who else did you interview in an effort to find out if the Davidians possessed or were manufacturing illegal weapons and what did you learn?

Mr. AGUILERA. I interviewed numerous former Davidian members.

Mr. SCHUMER. Right.

Mr. AGUILERA. And I obtained

Mr. SCHUMER. I am interested in the neighbor, tell us a little about the neighbor, since we had wanted him to come testify, Mr. Servenka, if I'm pronouncing his name correctly.

Mr. AGUILERA. Yes, Mr. Servenka.

Mr. SCHUMER. Servenka, he's not allowed, so we'll have to rely on your testimony about it.

Mr. AGUILERA. Yes, sir. I initially received the information from Gene Barber who was told by Mr. Servenka that he had heard machinegun fire throughout the evenings. And thereafter, I personally interviewed Mr. Servenka, who told me the same thing.

Mr. SCHUMER. OK. Thank you, Mr. Aguilera. At least I think the case has been made overwhelmingly that you met appropriate standard in this warrant and that we're getting some crocodile tears about it.

My next questions come for Mr. Johnston, who I must say has a reputation of being a fine prosecutor. How many years have you been a prosecutor?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Little over 10 years, 8 years in the Federal sys

tem.

Mr. SCHUMER. How many search warrants have you reviewed? Mr. JOHNSTON. Several hundred.

Mr. SCHUMER. OK. Did you feel that Special Agent Aguilera had done a decent, a good job, on the investigation of violations in the firearms law at Davidian when you saw the warrant?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I felt he had done a very good job, and the affidavit itself, while he gave the information and drafted it, it was worked on by assistant U.S. attorneys, including me, and there has been a lot of talk today about the sexual abuse in the affidavit. Mr. SCHUMER. Yes, I was going to ask you that.

Mr. JOHNSTON. That was my call.

Mr. SCHUMER. And why did you put it in there?

Mr. JOHNSTON. For a number of reasons. Primarily, a woman named Joyce Sparks had given information

Mr. SCHUMER. We're heard about her. She was interviewed by a member of the Waco Committee Team named Ms. Haga.

Mr. JOHNSTON. There was quite a bit of information, I think a page or more, about Joyce Sparks and the information she had received. In and of itself it wasn't-it didn't say the machineguns, but it demonstrated that they had apparently had weapons, they hadthere was some threatening discussion by Koresh involving Ms. Sparks.

Further, there was evidence of a buried schoolbus that may act as a shooting range. At any rate, to explain to the magistrate why Ms. Sparks was there, I made the decision to include in there why she was there. She was there to investigate abuse-allegations of sexual abuse of children. And the allegations of sexual abuse in my mind were referenced generally in the affidavit. Had I had I wanted to

Mr. SCHUMER. I don't mean to hurry up, but my 10 minutes, I've got a lot of others here.

Mr. JOHNSTON. Had I wanted to prejudice the affidavit and the warrant, I would have put-I knew Kiri Jewell's story before the affidavit was drafted. And I would have put in all the details, the gory details about how he-what he did to her. I didn't want to prejudice the magistrate, but I did want to put the context of Ms. Sparks' visit. It was put in there to show why she was there and that she was there deliberately. There was evidence of sexual abuse. She didn't drop out of the sky. She had a good reason to be there.

Mr. SCHUMER. And of course, and I think it's been pretty clear the warrant's OK, so I am not going to bother you with many more questions. Just reiterating the fact, defense lawyers, which are very capable, didn't challenge. And furthermore, we found, and I'll get to that with Mr. Owen, we actually found violations of law, you did, on the compound. But just one other quick answer.

You also found some other things. I think some of those are the books that you have next to you. Would you just briefly, if you could, Mr. Johnston, explain what-let me ask you and then you

can corroborate. As I understand it, those books explain how to make bombs and things like that and they were found on the compound.

Mr. JOHNSTON. Well, these books were ordered and sent to the Davidians. They-along with-in and of themselves, they might just be interesting reading, but they go with the materials they had. This one, which they had-these were introduced at trial, Congressman.

Mr. SCHUMER. "Improved Land Mines."

Mr. JOHNSTON. "Improvised Land Mines, Their Employment and Destructive Capabilities." "CIA Field Expedient Methods for Explosive Preparation."

Mr. SCHUMER. OK, et cetera, et cetera. We'll submit for the record all of the names.

Mr. JOHNSTON. Anyway, they had to do with bombs and bombing.

Mr. SCHUMER. Those weren't being used as paperweights, were they, when you arrived, when you saw them?

Mr. JOHNSTON. They-the things they had fit into the talk in the books.

Mr. SCHUMER. Thank you. OK, Mr. Owen. And again I apologize. All of these witnesses have put lots of their lives into this case, and it's sort of unfair to rush through, but I have so many points I want to make, I have to. And Mr. Johnston, I think you've done an excellent job on this case and we very much appreciate it.

Mr. JOHNSTON. Thank you.

Mr. SCHUMER. Mr. Owen, would it be fair to say, and don't be modest, that you're an expert on firearms?

STATEMENT OF ED OWENS, FIREARMS EXPERT, BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS

Mr. OWEN. Yes, I've been recognized as an expert.

Mr. SCHUMER. OK. Here is my question. Did you-you were on the scene. You identified guns from the compound. Could you tell us briefly about that?

Mr. OWEN. I was assigned to assist both the FBI and the Texas Rangers at the evidence collection point.

Mr. SCHUMER. This is how many days after the

Mr. OWEN. This was the day the search began. It was several days after the fire.

Mr. SCHUMER. Got it. Could you identify any of those weapons that you actually saw at the compound?

Mr. OWEN. Yes, sir. In fact the representative of the Texas Rangers has several of the weapons.

Mr. SCHUMER. They happen to have them here? Good. Could we could we see could one of the Texas Rangers please show us one of the illegal weapons that were found at the compound? The actual weapon is here. You're from the Texas Rangers, sir? We thank you for your help.

Mr. JOHNSTON. That's Sgt. Jim Miller of the Texas Rangers.
Mr. SCHUMER. Thank you, Sergeant.

OK. Could you just hold that up? Now, Mr. Owen, do you have to go over there and examine them or is it sufficient for you to see

from here, are those weapons could you name what they were? Could you hold that one up, please, sir? Stand up, please.

Mr. OWEN. I need to see it a little bit closer.

Mr. SCHUMER. Go over, please. And could the other gentlemen just stand up so the committee could get some idea? OK. Now that one's obviously charred. Can you just tell us what these were and if you found them at the compound?

Mr. OWEN. This is a converted AR-15 type rifle, manufactured by

Mr. SCHUMER. Converted means being made into an automatic, I presume.

Mr. OWEN. Give you every indication it's been modified, there's the presence of a pivot hole that mounts an M-16 automatic sear. The barrel has been modified by drilling holes through the sides of it. The copper mesh wraps around the barrel and the outer casing. It's very typical of sound suppressor or silencer construction.

Mr. SCHUMER. Thank you. And the other one just briefly is, itjust let me ask you, you can answer, is that a weapon, illegal, that you found at the compound?

Mr. OWEN. This is an AK-47-type rifle that has been converted to permit full automatic.

Mr. SCHUMER. Making it illegal?

Mr. OWEN. Yes.

Mr. SCHUMER. Thank you, Mr. Owen. And, Mr. Aguilera, this is what you were afraid that you might find, I guess, when you put the warrant together?

Mr. AGUILERA. Yes, sir.

Mr. SCHUMER. Thank you. My final questions are for Dr. Perry, who Dr. Perry, you interviewed the 21 children released from the compound during the standoff. Based on your team's interviews, what type of lifestyle were the children exposed to and how healthy was this? Did the children understand who their families were? I'm going to let you finish up, so I want to ask these quickly.

STATEMENT OF BRUCE DUNCAN PERRY, M.D., PH.D., ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY AND BEHAVIORAL SCIENCES, BAYLOR MEDICAL COLLEGE

Dr. PERRY. We worked extensively, we didn't just interview them. We basically lived with these kids for 2 months. We had a large team of experts, much-with much more expertise than the religious and the social apologists who have tried to make this sound like it was a benign religious community. I know of no religious sect that practices grooming children from the age of 4 and 5 to be sex objects of the leader. We basically

Mr. SCHUMER. It almost defiles the name of calling it a religion. Dr. PERRY. Well, it actually is, I think, for many people who are practicing Christians. It's very offensive to suggest that engaging in sex with children is a legitimate part of our belief system.

Mr. SCHUMER. And how about discipline, what did you find about that?

Dr. PERRY. We found the kids were inappropriately and excessively disciplined, physical discipline, that was clearly abusive. We found a whole variety of other practices which I've described in my