to ensure that they never happen again. The only way this can be achieved is through impartiality and openness.

Let us not forget why we are here this morning. Four law enforcement officers lost their lives, 20 were seriously injured and almost 80 people died at the Branch Davidian Compound. We must never allow our work here to drift away from the interests of those families who lost loved ones.

David Koresh and his followers were under intense scrutiny by local officials. After all, it was local law enforcement, responding to very suspicious activities, who contacted Federal authorities. The ATF obtained a lawful search warrant which subsequently was not challenged in court cases involving the surviving Davidians. In trying to serve the warrant, officers came under heavy gunfire. After a cease fire was negotiated, the FBI took control of the situation and attempted to negotiate a settlement that prevented further loss of life. Unfortunately, the agency was only partially successful. Some adults and children voluntarily left the compound in the days following February 28, 1993. But on April 19, the Branch Davidian compound erupted in fire.

There are obvious and distressing problems surrounding the strategy and actions of both the ATF and the FBI and they must be examined and resolved. The Department of Treasury issued an exhaustive report that strongly criticized the actions of the ATF. However, some questions still remain. If our Government Reform and Oversight Subcommittee is to achieve its mission, then we must conduct fair and proper oversight.

Finally Mr. Chairman, I want to reiterate that my purpose over the next eight days is to see what went wrong, to determine if the problems have been corrected, and to make sure we do not engage in trivial partisan politics. I want my constituents and the American people to know that government, while far from perfect, works for them. If these hearings produce a clearer understanding of what really happened at Waco, then we will have done our jobs well.

Otherwise, the public will only be left with questions, hearsay and more reasons to doubt and mistrust its government.

Let us not follow the tragedy at Waco with the tragedy of the Waco hearings. Let us not only have the heat of passionate debate, but the light of understanding and the certainty that only true knowledge can bring.

Thank you Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ZELIFF. The Chair now recognizes the ranking minority. member of the Crime Subcommittee, Charles Schumer of New York, for his opening statement.

Mr. SCHUMER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

And let me begin by saying that I believe with all my heart that we should have hearings on the incident at Waco. This is the first of 8 very sad days. We are going to talk about the deaths of scores of men and women and children, including four ATF agents. If we can learn the lessons of this tragedy by bringing out new facts or even if no new facts come out, by looking at the old facts in a fresh light, then this is a worthy endeavor.

Because in the words of Justice Louis Brandeis, sunlight is the best disinfectant. The danger here is that we won't shine sunlight but rather a strobe light-flashing on and off and distorting our vision.

I have two goals as we enter into these hearings. First, to make the investigation constructive-we interrupt this opening statement for a commercial message.

Mr. ZELIFF. Is that what you consider an outside interest? Go ahead.

Mr. SCHUMER. OK. Are we all set there? We can listen to her. OK. First is to make this investigation constructive, not destructive and divisive. The ATF and FBI should leave this hearing stronger, better, and more effective at enforcing all our laws, including gun laws. Because when the next David Koresh appears, we don't want law enforcement to make the same mistakes, but we

definitely want the next Koresh apprehended and, if found guilty, then punished.

The men and women of ATF and FBI made terrible mistakes at Waco. Those responsible for our Federal law enforcement agencies have admitted those errors. Law enforcement officials, more than anyone on this panel, feel awfully about the mistakes that cost the lives of four of their colleagues. It is they who go to bed at night thinking about the partners and friends left behind.

And law enforcement officials have made reforms to correct the problems. Nevertheless, if we can leave these hearings with constructive suggestions on how to improve the ATF and the FBI, then they will be a service to the American people.

The second goal is to keep these hearings honest. We will challenge anyone and everyone who presents a bias or factually incorrect view of what happened at Waco. I will not let this become a show trial with law enforcement as the defendant. These Waco hearings must not degenerate into a kangaroo court.

It is unfair for us today to look at what law enforcement did at Waco in a vacuum. And it is unfair to twist the facts making law enforcement the villain and David Koresh the lawbreaker, the victim. That is like saying right is wrong and night is day.

Let us be very clear. David Koresh was a dangerous, sick man who molested children, preached violence, and led his followers into a horrible suicide. David Koresh was not a peaceful cleric in an ivycovered chapel or even an eccentric with strange religious views. David Koresh was an armed fanatic who was excoriated in his hometown newspaper in a series they entitled, "the Sinful Messiah."

David Koresh sexually abused children and called it holy.

David Koresh was obsessed with guns because he claimed it was commanded by scripture. He hoarded a military arsenal that included at least 48 illegal machineguns and scores of illegal handgrenades.

Remember, ladies and gentlemen, David Koresh and his followers did not greet Federal law enforcement officers with a psalm or a scripture. They greeted them with machineguns and grenades, more firepower than even the ATF agents themselves had. Nothing excuses that ambush. Nothing in American law excuses it. Nothing in the Bible excuses it. You do not meet a warrant with a machinegun, even if you believe the warrant was illegally obtained.

So let us put aside double standards. I doubt that the most vocal critics on this panel would argue for delay if ATF discovered an arsenal of machineguns and handgrenades mere blocks from here in Washington's inner city, and I doubt that today's Monday morning quarterbacks would demand that ATF wait for the advice of sociologists, social workers, neighborhood preachers, and professors of religion before raiding such an arsenal.

From the beginning, and this is my concluding point, from the beginning, these hearings have had the odor of bias hanging over them. And over the last week, we have discovered where that smell is coming from-the National Rifle Association.

We have uncovered covert payments by the NRA to high-priced explosives experts; lawyers associated with the NRA being sneaked onto panels; and finally, a witness who was deceived by NRA em

1

ployees passing themselves off as congressional staffers. It is no wonder that the NRA has tried to hide their role in this hearing. Everyone knows their bias. This is the organization that buys advertisements calling law enforcement jackbooted thugs.

Frankly, I don't think that the NRA gives a damn about the tragedy at Waco, but rather wants to destroy the ATF because they enforce the laws that the NRA despises-the Brady law and the assault weapons ban. And I am very troubled that some on the majority staff have conceded at least part of the planning and organization of this hearing to the NRA.

In order to fully understand what happened at Waco, and what went wrong there, we need a fair, impartial, unbiased, and factual investigation. Unfortunately, I cannot today say that the hearing is fully living up to that standard.

We have requested that there be an investigation into the role of the NRA, including questioning under oath employees of the organization and staff members involved in this hearing. So far, our requests have been denied.

Now, you may ask one final question. Who cares whether the NRA is involved or not? Well, it matters because their hatred of the ATF so distorts their view of the incident at Waco that this hearing runs the danger of missing the broader point.

One man bears the ultimate burden for the horrible scar on American history of Waco. This man is David Koresh, the Sinful Messiah. David Koresh is ultimately to blame for the horror of Waco no matter how others seek to twist and revise history.

These hearings must not run away from that fact. They must examine where law enforcement failed and seek to improve, not decimate, the ATF and the FBI. When we run into the next David Koresh, we want smarter law enforcement to avoid the mistakes of Waco and stronger, more effective law enforcement to apprehend and punish those who molest women and children-who molest children and stockpile weapons.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Schumer follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF HON. CHARLES E. SCHUMER, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW YORK

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Let me begin by saying that we should be having hearings on the incident at Waco.

This is the first of eight very sad days. We are going to talk about the deaths of scores of men, women and children including four ATF agents.

If we can learn the lessons of this tragedy by bringing out new facts or evenif no new facts come out-by looking at the old facts in a fresh light, then this is a worthy endeavor.

Because, in the words of Justice Louis Brandeis, sunlight is the best disinfectant. The danger here is that we won't shine sunlight but rather a strobe light-flashing on and off-and distorting our vision.

I have two goals as we enter into these hearings:

First, to make the investigation constructive, not destructive and divisive. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and the Federal Bureau of Investigation should leave this hearing stronger, better and more effective at enforcing all our laws, including gun laws. Because, when the next David Koresh appears, we don't want law enforcement to make the same mistakes but we definitely want the next Koresh apprehended and, if found guilty, then punished.

The events at Waco have been scrutinized in seven Congressional hearings, two exhaustive agency reports, and a long trial.

The men and women of ATF and FBI made terrible mistakes at Waco. Those responsible for our federal law enforcement agencies have admitted those errors. Law enforcement officials, more than anyone on this panel, feel awfully about mistakes that cost the lives of four of their colleagues. It is they who go to bed at night thinking about the partners and friends left behind.

And law enforcement officials have made reforms to correct problems. They have tried to heal deep scars and move on to face new crimes and problems.

Nevertheless, if we can leave these hearings with constructive suggestions on how to improve the ATF and the FBI then I will consider them a service to the American people.

The second goal is to keep these hearings honest. We will challenge anyone and everyone who presents a biased or factually incorrect view of what happened at Waco. I will not let this become a show trial with law enforcement as the defendant. These Waco hearings must not degenerate into a kangaroo court.

We owe this to the people who lost their lives at Waco-both civilian and law enforcement to the people who are concerned about this case—no matter what their views-and to all Americans.

It is unfair for us to today look at what law enforcement did at Waco in a vacuum. And it is unfair to twist the facts, making law enforcement the villain and David Koresh, the law breaker, the victim. This is like saying right is wrong and night is day.

Let's be very clear, David Koresh was a dangerous, sick man who molested children, preached violence, and led his followers into a horrible suicide.

David Koresh was not a peaceful cleric in an ivy-covered chapel or even an eccentric with strange religious views. David Koresh was an armed fanatic who was excoriated in his hometown newspaper in a series they entitled the "Sinful Messiah". David Koresh sexually abused children and called it holy.

David Koresh was obsessed with guns because he claimed it was commanded by scripture. He hoarded a military arsenal that included at least 48 illegal machineguns and scores of illegal handgrenades.

David Koresh said "If you want to die for God, you've got to kill for God." He warned that he would meet law enforcement with so much violence that it would make the Los Angeles riots "pale by comparison."

If we forget these facts, we will do a disservice to the ATF agents who lost their lives and we will give credence to those who believe that the big problem at Waco was law enforcement not David Koresh.

Remember, David Koresh and his followers did not greet federal law enforcement officers with psalm or scripture.

They greeted them with these.

They greeted them with machineguns and grenades.

More firepower than even the ATF agents themselves had.

Nothing excuses that ambush.

Nothing in American law excuses that. Nothing in the Bible excuses that.

You do not meet a warrant with a machinegun-even if you believed it was illegally obtained.

Let us not forget that four officers were murdered in that cold-blooded ambush. Twenty others were wounded.

These were our agents, seeking to enforce laws that we passed, that they were sworn to uphold, and that apply to all Americans.

Who speaks for them today? Who speaks for their widows, whose grief we now reopen?

And let us put aside double standards.

The question is asked, why did the ATF have to act when it did? Why could it not have been delayed?

These are valid questions.

But I strongly doubt that the most vocal critics on this panel would argue for delay if ATF discovered an arsenal of machineguns and handgrenades mere blocks from here in Washington's inner city. I doubt that today's Monday morning quarterbacks would demand that ATF wait for the advice of sociologists, social workers, neighborhood preachers, and professors of religion before raiding such an arsenal. In fact, they would condemn those that advocated delay.

We should have no hypocrisy, no double standards in our judgements.

Yet, some who sit here today seem to hold the ATF and FBI to a standard that no police department anywhere in this country could meet. Some of those who are running these hearings seem to have an ulterior motive.

From the beginning these hearings have had the odor of bias hanging over them. And over the last week, we've discovered where that smell is coming from-the National Rifle Association.

We have uncovered covert payments by the NRA to high-priced explosive experts; lawyers associated with the NRA being sneaked onto panels; and finally a witness who was deceived by NRA employees passing themselves off as Congressional staff

ers.

But it is no wonder that the NRA has tried to hide their role in this hearing. Everyone knows their bias.

This is an organization that buys advertisements calling law enforcement "jackbooted government thugs."

This is the same organization that just sent out a brand new mailing which said that the Branch Davidians are not the guilty party but that "the people who should be on trial should be the ones who planned and executed the raid."

Frankly, I don't think that NRÅ gives a damn about the tragedy at Waco but rather wants to destroy the ATF because they enforce laws that the NRA despisesthe Brady Law and the assault weapons ban.

I am very troubled that some on the Majority staff have ceded at least part of the planning and organization of this hearing to the NRA.

In order to fully understand what happened at Waco and what went wrong there, we need a fair, impartial, unbiased and factual investigation.

Unfortunately, I cannot today say that this hearing is living up to that standard. To remove this taint, this black cloud that now hangs over these hearings, and to prove to the American people that this investigation will be fair, we have asked that there be a full investigation into the role of the NRA, including questioning under oath employees of the organization and staff members involved in this hearing.

So far our requests have been denied.

Some of you may ask, who cares whether or not the NRA is involved?

Well it matters because their hatred of the ATF so distorts their view of the incident at Waco that this hearing runs the danger of missing the broader point.

One man bears the ultimate burden for this horrible scar on American history. That man is David Koresh-the Sinful Messiah.

David Koresh is ultimately to blame for the horror of Waco, no matter how others seek to twist and revise history.

David Koresh ultimately bears responsibility for this tragedy.

These hearings must not run away from that fact. They must examine where law enforcement failed and seek to improve, not decimate, the ATF and the FBI.

When we run into the next David Koresh, we want smarter law enforcement to avoid the mistakes of Waco and stronger and more effective law enforcement to apprehend and punish those who molest children and stockpile weapons.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ZELIFF. Thank you. In the interests of fairness and openness, I let you have a little additional time, 3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. SCHUMER. I appreciate it.

Mr. ZELIFF. I just want to be on the record with that.

The Chair now recognizes the chairman of the full Judiciary Committee, my good friend, Henry Hyde of Illinois, for his opening statement.

Mr. HYDE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It seems from my good friend Mr. Schumer's remarks that somehow these hearings could be much more abbreviated. The gentleman has a lot of answers that I don't think were available to everybody else. In any event, these will be interesting hearings.

As chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, I shared in the authorization of them because I think they are necessary and I think they are warranted. More than 2 years after the tragedy of Waco, millions of Americans continue to wonder why. Many of my constituents are asking an almost universal question: How could this happen? This episode in our history raises many difficult and lingering questions about timing, judgment, motives, and the proper exercise of Federal police power.

Some believe the approach taken at Waco first by the ATF and then by the FBI was unnecessarily confrontational. Did the actions and activities of the Branch Davidians and their leader David