Of course, I know the law directed us to establish relationships with the NCRP, the National Academy of Sciences, and so on.

Representative HOLIFIELD. Yes.

Secretary FLEMMING. And as the testimony has brought out, we have established those relationships, so that there is a clear line of communication between them and the Council, if they have any questions at all about actions that we have taken or proposed to take.

But certainly I would say, as a public official, and in this case as Chairman of this particular Council, if any outside group questions the kind of action that we have recommended to the President and that has been taken, I would see to it that that group had the opportunity of expressing their views and giving us the documentation to back up their views; and I would see to it that it is given careful consideration.

Representative HOLIFIELD. In other words, you do intend to have regulations which will give that protection and opportunity of protest? Secretary FLEMMING. I do not know whether it would be necessary for us to issue formal regulations to that effect, but certainly we have a responsibility to make it clear that we are willing to have people express themselves on these issues.

Representative HOLIFIELD. One other point is involved, and this applies particularly to this committee. This is the point of the claiming of executive privilege.

Under the statute, of course, being advisory to the President, it is true that you are in a close relationship to the President, and I think all of us respect that type of relationship. At the same time, this committee has had a very close association with the Atomic Energy Commission; and as the Atomic Energy Commission is going to be one of the agencies that will be involved in implementing and enforcing these standards, we, of course, in our desire to be kept currently and fully informed, are interested, and we feel we can get the information as far as this agency is concerned, which might be of a privileged nature otherwise.

However, in the cases of other agencies of Government, the other agencies might, through the FRC, claim executive privilege, although we do have some statutory rights as to other agencies. We have had one experience with this, as you know. It is not important particularly, but we did send a letter asking for some information, and a letter was received in reply.

Dr. Chadwick, am I not stating that correctly?

Dr. CHADWICK. My reply was an informal one to the committee staff. It was not in response to a letter. It was in response to a telephone conversation. (See p. 143.)

Representative HOLIFIELD. That is right. I was wrong on the letter part. It was a telephone conversation, and under date of November 18 we did receive a letter back from Dr. Chadwick in which he did claim the executive privilege on certain matters that were involved in the telephone conversation.

In this particular instance, this was not of extraordinary importance, and we are not making a case on that. But we wonder what position we are going to be in in the event that there is action by the Council of an important nature, setting bracket guides of some kind,

and if we would like to have the information as to how those guides were arrived at.

Secretary FLEMMING. Mr. Chairman, I certainly appreciate the way you approach this issue. I appreciate your opening comment to the effect that you recognize that this is a group that is in an advisory relationship to the President, and that, of course, that does bring into play certain basic issues involving the relationships between the President and the Congress.

The letter to which you refer, as I read it, is simply a statement of the historic position of the executive branch on a matter of this kind. May I say, however, that I have long admired the role that the Joint Committee has played in this total area. As you know, I have had the opportunity of observing that role. It seems to me that there is no question at all but that the committee has rendered a very constructive service, and in terms of specific problems that may arise in this particular area, I have no doubt in my own mind that we can work them out in such a manner that this committee can fully discharge its responsibilities, without our getting into conflict with this historical position of the executive branch on matters of this kind.

I can assure you that as far as the operations of our Department are concerned, I can speak very definitely and specifically on that. Whatever we are doing in this particular area I will be glad to put on the table before this committee or any other committee at any time. I feel the other departments would feel that way about it. But as far as the Council itself is concerned, keeping in mind these basic principles, I do not think there is any doubt but that we will be able to furnish this committee the information which it will need in order to evaluate properly recommendations that may have been made. Representative HOLIFIELD. This type of information will include complaints and compliance reports, or lack of compliance?

Secretary FLEMMING. Yes; I do not see any problem there.

Of course, Mr. Chairman, I think I should make the point that a recommendation growing out of a lack of compliance would be made to the President, and of course it is up to the President then to determine what he is going to do with the recommendation. It becomes a report that is then in the custody of the President.

But here again, I still do not think that we will have any difficulty. I know something about the President's attitudes on a matter of this kind. In other words, as you indicate, there has not been any difficulty up to the present time, and I do not see any reason why there should be any in the future. I certainly will be very happy to work with the committee in order to make sure that no difficulty does arise. Representative HOLIFIELD. There was another point, Mr. Secretary, which was expressed by several of the scientists that were members of the NCRP.

Representative HOSMER. Mr. Chairman, before we go to that subject, I have a third question that follows onto your two.

Representative HOLIFIELD. Go ahead.

Representative HOSMER. Mr. Flemming, you express the philosophy that the Council has the duty to see that these various regulations that are based on the guides do in fact follow them, and if it comes to the business of allocation, to take action in respect to recommendations to the President. Yet you have only Dr. Chadwick and his secretary

at work. You have a second special group that is on a special project. How are you going to have the council do these jobs that you just specified as being its responsibility?

Secretary FLEMMING. Mr. Congressman, my idea on that is that when an appropriate period of time has elapsed from the issuance of the President's policy guide, we will ask the appropriate departments and agencies to report to us.

Representative HOSMER. You and Mr. Mitchell and the other two are not going to sit down in a room and decide this. Let's get to that phase.

Secretary FLEMMING. We would formally, as a Council, ask the departments and agencies to report to us. Those reports would come initially to Dr. Chadwick as the executive officer of the Council. I would request him to take them up initially with the working group that has been described in previous testimony to the committee.

Representative HOSMER. What group is this? The one you just described?

Secretary FLEMMING. No; if I may go back, I will be glad to identify it.

Soon after we were appointed and organized, we did set up a working group of senior technical representatives of the participating agencies. The members of this working group are Dr. Allen V. Astin, Director of the National Bureau of Standards, who is the chairman, and who is here with me this morning; Dr. Nathan Woodruff, Director of the Office of Health and Safety, Atomic Energy Commission; Dr. David E. Price, who is Chief of the Bureau of State Services, Public Health Service, DHEW; Dr. Edwin P. Laug, who is Chief of the Physiochemistry Branch, Bureau of Biological and Physical Sciences, Food and Drug Administration, DHEW; Col. Carl Tessmer, who is Chief of the Basic Sciences Division, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, Department of Defense; and Mr. Richard Schwartz, assistant to the Under Secretary, Department of Labor. This working group initially worked on development of recommendations by the Council on Radiation Protection Standards, and then it was the working group that suggested the appointment of the full-time temporary staff to do further work on it. I think I am correct in saying that the working group has met on an average of once a week.

Dr. CHADWICK. One-half day a week, yes.

Secretary FLEMMING. They have met one-half day a week to give consideration to the various matters that have come before the Council. Representative HOSMER. That was during the period of gestation? Secretary FLEMMING. No; that has gone right on. This is a standing, working group, and will continue to go on. So So my initial reference of these reports from the departments and agencies would be to this working group. Then, if these reports were to raise issues which the working group felt made it necessary for a competent ad hoc group to give consideration on virtually a full-time basis, we would certainly arrange for the development of such a group. They in turn, then, would report to the working group, and the working group would report to the Council. The Council would then give consideration to the recommendation of the working group and determine what recommendation we would make to the President.

Representative HOSMER. This senior working group consists entirely of men of importance who are busy on other full-time jobs?

Secretary FLEMMING. That is correct; they are top people.

Representative HOSMER. And if they get in 10 or 20 sets of regulations from different agencies, they are obviously not going to be able to go through and outline them and compare them and other things. How do they have a red flag, so to speak, put before their minds?

Secretary FLEMMING. It is definitely my feeling that the working group would under these circumstances feel that they should bring together from the various agencies a small group of competent scientists to spend, for a period of time, full time in analyzing these reports from the departments and agencies. Then, they would in turn profit by the work of that staff group.

Representative HOSMER. In other words, that prospectively will be the way it is handled. They have at this time got a small working group going.

Secretary FLEMMING. That is right.

Congressman Hosmer, I do not want to appear, in outlining it in this way, to again be dogmatic in saying that I think this is the only way in which the work of the Council should be carried on. But

I can say that up to the present time, this device of pulling in for temporary full-time duty topflight people from the various departments and agencies has worked very well.

Representative HOSMER. All I am trying to do is find out how it is going to work prospectively.

Secretary, FLEMMING. That is right. The time may very well come, Mr. Congressman, when because of this particular activity that we are talking about now, we will decide that there should be a larger fulltime staff; that is, larger than just having a full-time executive secretary. But we have been, in effect, feeling our way along to determine what is the best way to organize.

Representative HOSMER. I suppose that the staff for the senior working group that does the review of the various regulations would do so on some periodic basis.

Secretary FLEMMING. That is right.

Representative HOSMER. What should that period reasonably be? Secretary FLEMMING. I have not consulted with my colleagues on that. Dr. Astin might have a feeling on that. I would say maybe once a quarter.

Dr. ASTIN. I think that might be reasonable. We would adapt our working program to meet the needs. For example, during the last few weeks before we finished our first report, the working group met daily, because it was necessary at that time. We will adapt our own program to whatever the requirements are.

Representative HOSMER. I think that covers the point. Sometimes we find allegations that the Government is not doing its job in something like this. It is important for the public to know that this review is going on on a regular basis of some sort.

Secretary FLEMMING. I agree.

I feel we have a very important staff responsibility to discharge for the President, and it seems to me that we should do it in approximately the way I have indicated.

Representative HOSMER. There is another inquiry I would like to make of you. These working groups or these staffs, I think, more particularly, have been described to us as going out and talking to various people on the National Council, talking with various people in industry, and various scientists in the Government, apparently obtaining information, then going back in a closet someplace by themselves and locking the door, and coming out with a guide.

One of the gentlemen described his frustration. After being talked with, apparently the Council came out with something that disagreed with his particular recommendations or statements. Would you discuss that feature? It is an area from which controversy and criticism can spring, and possibly we should have a little idea of the way you do go about this.

Secretary FLEMMING. Mr. Congressman, as my May 25 statement indicated, of course there was the type of consultation that you describe, and a great many persons were consulted. I am sure that the working group and the members of their temporary staff did receive conflicting recommendations. The fact of the matter is, there were various items that were discussed, I am sure, vigorously within the working group itself, and then within the Council, before we decided on the recommendation that we should make to the President. I am sure that the recommendation that we made to the President reflected the views of some who were consulted and was probably contrary to the views of others that were consulted, but those conflicting views had to be resolved.

I appreciate that the consultative process could have gone on longer, in the sense that when the working group tentatively arrived, let us say, at some conclusions, they might have gone back to some of these persons with whom they had consulted originally to get additional reactions from them. But as we all appreciate, although I firmly believe in the consultative processes, there comes a point at which that has to stop, and the recommendation has to be made so that the President, in turn, can issue guides.

But there is nothing final, in the sense of the indefinite future, about the policy guidance of the President; and certainly we will examine very carefully the testimony before this committee for possible views in opposition to the policy guidance. We will be very glad, as I indicated to the chairman in response to his inquiry, to receive other suggestions on this policy guidance. It will be reviewed, and I am sure that if the working group feels that a mistake has been made, they will recommend changes to us. If we feel a mistake has been made, we will certainly make a recommendation to the President.

You were provided with a list of the persons who were consulted. Just as a layman, it seems to me that they did consult with people who do represent different points of view.

Representative HOSMER. Part of the difficulty here has to do with what is meant by "consultation." This gentleman, Dr. Parker, felt that he was asked some questions and his answers were listened to, but when it came down to actually applying what he said to what turned out to be a guide, there was no opportunity for him to discuss it in specifically that context.

Representative HOLIFIELD. To comment on the guide afterward as contradistinct from the method within NCRP where, if they do arrive