are on special diets, and the foods we need to keep alive and in decent health often cost more than the regular, nondietetic items. The thrifty food plan of the Department of Agriculture assumes that people are healthy but what about those of us who are not in good health? Must this program punish us because our poor health requires us to pay more for the food we need?

I now pay $36 a month for $48 worth of food stamps. Frankly, I can't understand how they came up with the $48 figure for a single person. Anyone who has been in a supermarket lately knows that for $48 a month a single person can hardly buy anything. Everytime I go into a supermarket I see prices up 4 cents or 5 cents over the time before. I recently spent $13.66 for a shopping bag of food, and I could hardly feel its weight. A few years ago I could spend the same amount for two shopping bags of food. I would bet that no home economist in the Department of Agriculture could buy a nutritionally adequate diet, especially for a person like me who is on a special diet, for $48 a month.

Because $48 in food stamps cannot stretch for me, I usually spend at least $8 to $10 extra each month in order to buy the foods I need to keep me healthy. If the present food stamp system stays in effect, by January I will have to pay $38 for $50 worth of food stamps. If proposal No. 1 is accepted, I would have to pay $39 for $44 worth of food stamps, a loss of $7 a month. With all the hassle I have to go through, like running across town to be recertified and standing in line at the bank to purchase my stamps, it hardly seems worth the trouble for only a $5 bonus. If the Government makes me pay more for my food stamps, but allows me less in the way of food, it will hurt me.

I do hope you understand that old people will not tolerate any proposals which will cut our benefits and hurt us. We built this country, paid our taxes, fought in your wars, and raised the next generation. There are more old people around these days: we are organized, and we vote. In a country as rich as ours, it would be shameful if the Government carried out these awful food stamp proposals, for it would mean that malnutrition would increase.

Please tell the President and the Department of Agriculture that they must not cut food stamp benefits for the elderly or for millions of Americans. The food stamp program is absolutely essential for those of us on fixed incomes as well as for the working poor. Keep the food stamp program strong until you can come up with a better plan to assure nutritionally adequate diets for all Americans.

Senator, I feel I have to say this, it would be a grave injustice to the country if we let this program go.

We have the largest budget for the military, we pay rich farmers millions of dollars to let land lay idle instead of growing food and distributing it to the poor and to the elderly. I feel this would be a great injustice, if we would let this food stamp program deteriorate, because the President gives billions to other countries to fight each other and to send them war supplies and to supply them with everything they need. Still, he cannot take care of the elderly and the sick at home. It is not correct.

I thank you for listening.

65-120-76 -4

FOREIGN AID GIVEN PRECEDENCE

Senator CHURCH. I like all of your testimony, Mrs. Taylor. I especially like the punchline. It just happens we have a foreign aid bill in the Senate this afternoon which is approximately one-sixth of the total foreign aid package we will be asked to vote on this year, and this bill comes to $1.6 billion. But there is a little footnote in it that nobody will see, unless they read the fine print, which brings it up to $2 billion, and that is just one-sixth of what we are talking about for the total year in foreign aid. Here we have people like you coming and pleading not to have their food stamps cut back from $18 to $44, and you have special dietary problems.

Now, there is no special accommodation made for people who have dietary problems that may require them to pay for expensive food. Is that correct?

Mrs. TAYLOR. Yes. There is no allowance whatsoever. We have to make due with that money, and also, Senator, I would like to say this: When we get the food stamps, you know, all we can get with it is food, so when we have to buy soap and tissues, and things like that, we have to have money for that, in addition to the money we spend to buy food stamps. Well, if we have to take more for the food stamps, that means we do not get the other necessities we need, because it is not there for us.

Senator CHURCH. Yes.

Mrs. TAYLOR. And these are the things that are making it very, very hard for senior citizens.

Senator CHURCH. Yes, indeed.

Senator Pell, do you have any questions?

Senator PELL. No, not yet. Thank you very much, Mrs. Taylor. Mr. KIRSCH. I would like to point out one special factor about Mrs. Taylor's case.

At present, she pays $36 for $48 worth of food stamps. The reason she pays $36 instead of the maximum $38 is because she pays the medical insurance and hospitalization insurance, in addition to medicare, which she feels she needs.

If, for 1 month, she did not pay those medical costs, under plan 1 she would have to pay $45 for $44 worth of food stamps, thereby rendering her ineligible for food stamps completely. Therefore, it is important to understand that many people will be forced out of the food stamp program, because they will no longer be eligible, or because the small bonus will not warrant their participation.

I would next like to introduce the two women from Pawtucket, R.I. On my right is Catherine Campbell, a 75-year-old woman who gets her income from the SSI program in the amount of $205 a month. Next to Ms. Campbell is Josephine Baptista, who is also 75 years old and receives her income from SSI and social security.

Mrs. Baptista's total is $209 a month. Both of these women have to pay $36 for $48 worth of food stamps.

If proposal No. 1 is implemented, they would be forced on January 1 to pay $39 for $44 worth of food stamps instead of the $50 they would have received if the current program were to be continued.

This means that they are losing $7 a month in necessary food aid, and they will be reduced to a food stamp bonus of $5.

STATEMENT OF CATHERINE CAMPBELL, PAWTUCKET, R.I.

Ms. CAMPBELL. I do need food stamps. I need them very much, and the people of Rhode Island, especially the senior citizens, also need them. When I go to a store I keep seeing the prices going up week after week. It's really hard to keep up with them. You just have to buy a little less than you need to eat the way you should.

Senator CHURCH. Your allotment is not going up, and they are proposing to bring it down, but the prices in the foodstore keep going up. Ms. CAMPBELL. That is right. They keep going up every week. People on fixed incomes suffer more than most people.

Senator CHURCH. And you are in a bigger squeeze.

Mrs. TAYLOR. That is right.

Senator CHURCH. So your present from the Department of Agriculture is that you are going to get reduced stamps to solve your problem.

Ms. CAMPBELL. That is correct. The $12 extra I now get in the program isn't enough. If they cut me down to only a $5 bonus, it won't be any help at all, because it just isn't worth participating in this program, with all the trouble and nasty looks you get from people, for only $5 a month. That doesn't even justify the paperwork.

STATEMENT OF JOSEPHINE BAPTISTA, PAWTUCKET, R.I.

Mrs. BAPTISTA. I'm glad to be here with all you people from Washington.

Senator PELL. It is nice to see you.

Senator CHURCH. It is good to have a friend right here from Rhode Island, isn't it.

Mrs. BAPTISTA. Well, it certainly is. The food stamps are a good source of help for us elderly people. Every time we go to the store, we try to get something that we like with the small amount of stamps. we have, and then that means that we are short in other things, you know, because we cannot get all of those things that we do like. There's just not enough money for that.

If we just go along with the amount of stamps we have got, we are lucky.

I know that I have to spend plenty outside of stamps for food as well as for articles like soap powder, and other items we need to keep clean and healthy. The stamps just don't cover all the needs I have. I don't understand how they can consider cutting us back. How can I buy the kind of diet I need for just the $44 worth of stamps that I need? I want to put in a good word for that food stamp program, because we cannot do without it.

Senator CHURCH. Thank you, Mrs. Baptista.
Senator Pell, do you have a question?

PET FOOD CONSUMED BY ELDERLY

Senator PELL. I would be interested in any examples of the kind of food you are compelled to purchase.

For instance, I have heard a report that a certain amount of dog food and cat food is eaten by the elderly citizens of our country.

Do any of you have any of you had that experience or are you aware of others who have been forced to do that?

Mrs. TAYLOR. I know that there have been people in the State of Pennsylvania that have been eating dog food and cat food, and some of them belong to some of the groups that I belong to.

It does happen, because that is the only way they get a little bit of meat, because they cannot afford to buy it. Every time you go to the store, Senator, it costs 5 or 10 cents more. The people who are on some kind of diet, and I would say most senior citizens are on some kind of a diet, if they have any health problems at all, cannot possibly manage on $48 a month. It is impossible.

Senator PELL. What would be, Mrs. Baptista-for example, what would be your average daily diet? What would you have for breakfast, for lunch, for dinner on an average day?

Tell us first about breakfast.

Mrs. BAPTISTA. A slice of toast and a cup of tea. And you are paying 79 cents for some cereal.

Senator PELL. Cereal and tea, any orange juice?

Mrs. BAPTISTA. Sometimes.

Senator PELL. Sometimes?

Mrs. BAPTISTA. Yes. I like to make my own orange juice when I can afford it.

Senator PELL. But you do not grow the oranges.

Mrs. BAPTISTA. No. Maybe if we went a bit further south, we could do that. That would really be helpful.

Senator PELL. And what would be your lunch?

Mrs. BAPTISTA. Well, maybe some soup and a sandwich.
Senator PELL. What kind of sandwich, what kind of bread?

Mrs. BAPTISTA. Well, rye bread, that is the only kind I like. I usually make a sandwich of something like tuna or sardines, but even that is pretty expensive and you can't have tuna all the time. I'd like to have meat, but it is very costly and I don't like lunch meats. If I've cooked a ham or a turkey, I'll use that for sandwiches. That's what I really like. The problem is that if you want to cat the things you'd like to have, or should have, you can't afford it. You really have to be very creative to make do, and you make do on what you can. I am fairly healthy and can get around. It's really much more difficult for the people who can't be on their feet much, or who need special foods. For them, eating well on our income can really be a chore.

Senator PELL. And for supper and dinner, what would you have? Mrs. BAPTISTA. I like a baked potato.

Senator CHURCH. That is very good.

Mrs. BAPTISTA. Idaho potato and maybe some hamburger, you cannot buy very much steak.

Everybody looks at you if you put a piece of steak in your basket, they think you are rich.

Once in awhile, though, I do have a piece of steak.

Senator PELL. You like steak?

Mrs. BAPTISTA. Yes, sir, or pork chops.

Senator PELL. But would you find that fish and chicken are expensive, as expensive as the red meat?

Mrs. BAPTISTA. Yes. It's very hard for me to buy much meat. It's very expensive.

Senator PELL. You are right.

Mrs. BAPTISTA. When we go out in a group on special occasions, we always try to have steak. We always try to pick a steak if we have the money to pay for it.

Ms. CAMPBELL. Senator Pell, a pound of red salmon is $1.85. I cannot buy that. It's too high. I can just look at it, that is all.

ADEQUATE DIET IS DIFFICULT

Senator PELL. I recognize the tremendous hardship that these changes in regulations will cause you, and I agree with the chairman, we should do what we can to prevent the impact they have on you. At the same time, there are ripoffs, not by the older people but by some of the young, some students, and others, who are experts at the food stamp program, in the way they should not be, and somehow we have to ripoff the ripoffs.

I do not know how it gets done, but we have many of you suffering while others get too much. This is the Solomon-type of problem we face in the Congress.

Ms. CAMPBELL. Why should we suffer for somebody else's abuses, if they do exist. I can tell you that the old people I know don't cheat. I don't know about the ripoffs, but cutting back on us elderly folks isn't going to solve the problem.

Mr. KIRSCH. Senator Pell, if abuses do exist, then we must try to stop them. I don't believe that it is happening to any significant degree at all. But that is not the question here, sir. What we are pointing out at this hearing is that once the Congress decides who is to receive food stamps, they should receive the nutritionally adequate diet the law guarantees. Under USDA's proposals which use the thrifty food plan, this will not happen. There's simply no sense to that at all.

Senator CHURCH. Right. We thank you all for appearing before us today.

Mr. KIRSCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator CHURCH. We will now hear from our next panel, Paul K. Philbrook, commissioner, Department of Social Welfare, Vermont; and Ms. Peggy McGuire, coordinator of program and staff development, Department of Social Services, Missouri.

I have just been called to the floor of the Senate, where I am told that the amendment that I am offering, trying to strike that footnote out of that foreign aid bill, is about to come up. I had better go there to see if I can save you people $800 million; meanwhile, Senator Pell will conduct the hearing.

Please excuse me for having to leave.

Senator PELL [presiding]. Carry on, Ms. McGuire.

STATEMENT OF PEGGY MCGUIRE, COORDINATOR OF PROGRAM AND STAFF DEVELOPMENT, DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL SERVICES, MISSOURI

Ms. MCGUIRE. Mr. Chairman, my name is Peggy McGuire. I am the coordinator of program and staff development of the Division of Family Services in the State of Missouri.

I am here to represent Mr. Lawrence Graham, director of the Department of Social Services in the State of Missouri, who regrets his inability to attend this very important hearing.