Mr. Gilbert got me this part-time job. Remember, 20 hours a week at $2.15 an hour does not put much bread on the table.

Senator CLARK. How did you hear of it?

Mr. GLICK. I lived in Marion County. After we completed the series of store and rural area inspections, another county was assigned to each one of us and as we completed that county, our reports were mailed in. The program was completed ahead of schedule. No more jobs were available through Bob Gilbert's office.

SPECIAL TRAINING NECESSARY

Senator CLARK. Obviously this took some expertise. I mean, I could not go out and check pesticides. Did you have some training to understand what these were, what they meant, and how they operated? How did you learn about it?

Mr. GLICK. The initial training was through the community employment program; Bob Gilbert was project director. We had a series of educational sessions at the area XI community college in Des Moines where we were instructed as to how to do this.

The Iowa Department of Agriculture supplied us with a manual describing the manufacturing of the products that were distributed by the wholesaler to the retailer for sale and use for controlling mice, rats, roaches, and what have you.

We found, through the book registration, the numbers that were supposed to be on these containers. I would say in my tour of duty about one-third of the products during the first 3 months I inspected had no USDA registration or no EPA number whatsoever.

There were open containers sitting up on shelves above counters and tables where packages were being wrapped below. Our job was not to tell them to unload it, or for us to pick it up. We were simply to report what we saw.

As I recall, no one complained or gave us a bad time. We introduced ourselves as being with the Iowa Department of Agriculture. We presented them with a picture identification which showed that we worked for the Iowa State Department of Agriculture. Only once did I receive any repercussion from the owners. One stated, "If you're so good at this, how come you are not telling me how to dispose of the empty containers?" Well, since I had no background in chemicals or the medical profession, I just told them that I would send the reports to the proper authority and then they would take action from that point on.

Of the 70 of us in the field-I am not speaking for the others. I never did get a report as to whether they followed through or not. I gave an accurate report of what I saw, but not what to do with the product. After about 2 weeks, we had a second educational program through the area XI community college. I learned a lot more because we were on the firing line for 2 weeks.

I learned more at the second program: how to present myself, where the problems were, how to discuss it with the retailer and what he should do, and the department of agriculture would come out and check him over.

Senator CLARK. We appreciate very much hearing some actual examples from someone who has benefited from the program. I am anxious to find out now if Bob can tell us what they did with the pesticide program. Did they follow up on it then?

Mr. GILBERT. Yes. Mr. Glick's testimony was very good, except it was the Iowa State Department, not the U.S. Department. Senator CLARK. I didn't catch that.

FOLLOWUP ON REPORTS

Mr. GILBERT. Yes, they followed up on every report sent in. We had older workers working in the office also, and they were checking every report back against the big manuals in the main office in Des Moines. If the product was outdated, banned, or any type of unregistered pesticide, the Iowa State pesticide division would send an inspector out to either pick up, dispose of it, or make some other arrangement.

Senator CLARK. So all of this work was done through this program by people who were over 55?

Mr. GILBERT. Right.

Senator CLARK. Now, just one other question, Mr. Gilbert, and then I want to ask Shirley a couple of questions.

What is your chief obstacle in placing older workers? What is the major problem that you face in this program in terms of placing people?

Mr. GILBERT. Age discrimination.

Senator CLARK. Age discrimination?

Mr. GILBERT. Right.

Senator CLARK. What kind? Can you think of some particular kind where it is very clear to you that people are being discriminated against simply because of their age?

Mr. GILBERT. I can think of a lot of specifics, but we won't mention any names here.

Senator CLARK. Yes.

Mr. GILBERT. This has probably been one of the biggest. We work closely with private enterprise, but we cannot tell them who they can hire or anything else. We have done a fabulous job here in the State in educating a lot of the private enterprise people in hiring the older worker by proving to them through this program that these people are very good employees-often better than the younger people. It is rather hard to say that when you have two young folks sitting across

the table.

Senator CLARK. No, it isn't.

Mr. GILBERT. I was just joking, knowing both of them.

Senator CLARK, Let me ask Shirley can you give us an idea of the kind of jobs that vou place people in? Ruby is an example which has already been discussed, but what are some of the jobs you fill?

Mrs. CAMPBELL. We have secretarial positions, receptionists, clerical, ianitors, and maintenance workers. We have security guards and handymen. We have homemaker health aides. We also have tax consultants for the elderly.

For any type of job that exists, we can usually find a person to fill the job.

Senator CLARK. So you would fill about every job imaginable?
Mrs. CAMPBELL. Yes.

Senator CLARK. Again, these are people who are over 55; they are people that can only work 20 hours a week. Is that right?'

Mrs. CAMPBELL. Twenty hours a week, right.

Senator CLARK. Do you have a lot of people, as Ruby discussed, that would like to work more than that?

Mrs. CAMPBELL. Oh, definitely.

Senator CLARK. How many of these people who are working and are restricted to the 20 hours would want to work more than that, would you guess?

Mrs. CAMPBELL. I would say over half of the people I have in the

program.

INELIGIBLES ALSO RECEIVE ASSISTANCE

I might add, too, that we not only work with the people that meet the income guidelines, we also, when they come in and fill out their application-if they do not meet our eligibility qualifications, we still try to work with them. We have job developers who go out and visit the different businesses here in Wapello County. When they bring a job opening in to the office, I have an aide in the afternoon who will call, not only the enrollees who we try to find permanent jobs for, but also the people who are not eligible for the program, and we have them apply for these different positions also.

We have placed some who did not qualify for the program in the private business sector as well.

Senator CLARK. Let me ask you a last question. If you had the money. how many more workers could you place who really want work and who could use it effectively? Do you have any idea at all? Mrs. CAMPBELL. Every day there is someone coming in and every day I receive calls from the other counties, "Do you still have openings? I have a person here who is eligible. Do you have an opening for him?" I could not give you an accurate figure.

Senator CLARK. But you could place a lot more people effectively? Mrs. CAMPBELL. Yes.

Senator CLARK. All right.

Well, the panel has been very good, and I appreciate it. Again, I think we will give you an opportunity, if you have any statements or questions about employment, we will continue that, then we will open it up to other subjects.

Please identify yourselves so we can have it for the record.

STATEMENT OF JOHN ZUMWALT, IOWA STATE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL SERVICES, OTTUMWA, IOWA

Mr. ZUMWALT. John Zumwalt, Iowa State Department of Social Services. I would like to speak particularly on the program that Shirley operates in Ottumwa.

We were talking to Mr. Gilbert about restraints and he spoke of discrimination. He spoke very highly of the type of work that one receives in these programs. We have one young lady who works with us and is 82 years old. Last February we had a terrible snowstorm

that kept most of our employees from the office and this young lady was there on time and was one of 5 workers out of 32 that made it to work that day.

So I have employed over 21 workers at this program in the department of social services in the area. This is a very fine program.

They spoke of some constraints and I was speaking to you about the holding down of the amount of money that one has to have to be a participant in some way and still be a part of this program. I believe it would be a great opening. It is very positive and very productive. It is a good program.

Very few jobs that I know of are centered to make work. All of them are to make one feel more important and more a part of the mainstream.

Senator CLARK. Thank you very much.

STATEMENT OF WILLA MAE BENNETT, OTTUMWA, IOWA

Mrs. BENNETT. Willa Mae Bennett.

I would like to comment on compulsory retirement at 65. I just wondered, if they don't retire at 65, where are these younger kids going to work? If no one retires out of their jobs, there is going to be a lot more unemployment than there is now, it seems to me.

Senator CLARK. Certainly that is an argument and it is one that is commonly used, but I am not sure that it is more important that a person 65 not have a job, let's say, than someone 21. It just seems to me that there is so much need for productive work that we ought to be able to have a society in which people who want to work at any age could do so.

Mrs. BENNETT. Well, I think they should be able to work maybe at part-time jobs-something they wanted to do all their lives they can do after they retire.

You work 40 or 50 years of your life in a job and then you retire, you could do some of the things, maybe, that you wanted to do, and still make money.

Senator CLARK. But suppose you are, let us say, the greatest pianist in the world, or the greatest artist in the world, and now you become 65 and you are just achieving your greatest potential, or your doctorate, or you are a professor. Why should you have to quit at 65?

Mrs. BENNETT. Well, I don't say they should, but won't that increase the unemployment to a great extent?

Senator CLARK. I think that is right, if we don't find productive

ways.

Mrs. BENNETT. I don't mean they should not be able to, but I think it would increase unemployment. Where would the younger ones go that are stepping into these jobs?

Senator CLARK. I think we have got to develop a system in which we have got jobs for everybody who is able to work and wants to work because we have got plenty to do in this country. I think it is true that if we are not able, we are going to have the high unemployment that we have now. For example, in Ottumwa we have about 10 percent unemployment-10 or 11 percent, the last I looked-under the present system. It is an enormous problem, there is no doubt about it.

Mrs. BENNETT. I heard a lot of people at John Deere say if they get a contract where they could have 30-years-and-out-retire-they would take it.

Senator CLARK. I think we really ought to provide opportunities for a fairly early retirement. I am not at all opposed to that. I think if a person wants to quit working and they can quit working at 60 or 62 or 65, that is fine-more power to them. I would not discourage that for a moment, but I just don't think we ought to say you have to. That is the only thing.

Are there other comments or questions? Yes?

STATEMENT OF LILLIAN BARBER, OTTUMWA, IOWA

Mrs. BARBER, Lillian Barber.

You were speaking of discrimination. In almost all of the Government programs, including this employment program, they discriminate against married people. The guidelines are $2,700, did you say? Mrs. CAMPBELL. $3,700 for two people.

Mrs. BARBER. That is rank discrimination and that is just one group. If it is $2,700 for one individual, it certainly should be at least $5,000 for two individuals to be eligible for these programs.

The point I am trying to make is not whether two persons can live cheaper than one. I am sure you are aware that in many cases, when people are on a very limited income, they will share a dwelling place, sometimes an apartment, or perhaps rent a house. This is often two ladies, or two gentlemen, sometimes more.

This program for employment for the elderly is much needed in our area. However in the guidelines, the income limit is $2,700 for one individual or $3,700 for a couple. I consider this to be unfair, because the word "couple" refers only to persons who are married to each other. I believe this would be more equitable if each person were treated as an individual, or if more investigation were made of the living arrangements of the applicants.

Senator CLARK. Does anybody want to comment on that?
Ruby?

Mrs. WELCHER. Well, I still maintain two people only have clothing and food extra, if they live in a home, they still have the same utility bills as one person. I do not see that it takes $5,000 a year for two people if it only takes $2,700 for one, because I don't think their expenses are that great.

Senator CLARK. Thank you.

STATEMENT OF BILL HOLVOET, DIRECTOR, AREA 16, AREA
AGENCY ON AGING, BURLINGTON, IOWA

Mr. HOLVOET. Bill Holvoet, Burlington, Iowa, area agency on aging director for area 16.

As I see it, the employment project is good, but it is unique. I don't believe any of our area in the southeastern corner, or maybe some of the other parts of the State, has this, so I think this needed to be brought out.

You said, "What would you do with the extra money." Don't pump it into the Ottumwa area.