Here was a little trickle of water flowing out and it was already only about half. Now it was not a big stream, but it was flowing. When that pond was so very, very low, and I discovered that, somebody might have pointed to that dry hole-would have come and told me that my pond was dry, that there had been a little ditch formed and the water was running out.

But I found it when it was a small amount running out and I immediately called a man that has a bulldozer to come and repair that dam, which he did. So there are a lot of little things that you can see and take care of if you are out on your own farm.

If I was in town, I would not know about it. As I say, I enjoy being out in the country.

Anyway, it is just a very small sum that we have to pay to ride in, which I pay each time when we come. I have felt this service is worth very much more to me than that, and I do give a larger contribution a couple of times a year-a single contribution-because I feel that it is worth that much to me-it is worth more to me.

Senator CLARK. Well, I am going to have some questions but I think before I question you, we are going to go on through and hear the other panelists.

I want to get all of your comments on a number of different things, so rather than asking you questions right now, I think I am going to come back a little later.

Next is Mrs. Lucille Anderson from Melcher, Iowa.

STATEMENT OF LUCILLE ANDERSON, MELCHER, IOWA

Mrs. ANDERSON. Melcher is a former mining community. I am just 15 miles from Knoxville, the county seat, and I have got a lot to say about transportation. We have had a bus for the past 22 years and it goes to each of the towns in the county. There are six small towns. Senator CLARK. Would you give your county?

Mrs. ANDERSON. Marion.

We have it on Friday and we have so many wanting to go that they call me to make a reservation. We have two trips on Friday with other towns. There is just one because they don't have so many wanting to go. There is no transportation to any of these small towns; none of them have anything, and people love to go to Knoxville.

A lot of them don't get out of town otherwise; they don't get away from home. They have the chance to go to the doctor, get medicine, go to the bank, go for the congregate meals, and whatever their needs are. Of course, as I said, there are some that just never leave the house otherwise and it has been a godsend to them. We used to have the railroad; the railroad is still there, but we had a passenger train twice a day which was a big help. We went to Des Moines, but we don't have anything like that now.

Senator CLARK. How long ago did that train stop running, do you know?

Mrs. ANDERSON. Just the past, I would say, 5 or 6 years. I don't remember exactly.

Well, the passenger train-it has been longer than that, but we don't have the freights through any more either. I suppose it has been 20 years or more since we have had the passenger train.

ELDERLY DESIRE INDEPENDENCE

Of course, there are lot of people who will take you, but a lot of them just don't think about it. One thing I found out about these older people, they like to be independent, and if they can go on their own, they are not about to ask a relative to take them.

About 25 percent of the population in Melcher is elderly, and I imagine 25 percent of those are widows. They mostly ride in the van. I guess the men that have cars prefer to go that way. We do have some ladies that have cars and can drive, but they don't feel that they can trust themselves to drive any more.

I was born in Melcher and we had all kinds of businesses. We had just about anything that we needed there, but we don't have that any more. We had a nice clinic there and we had doctors coming from Des Moines but, as of the middle of June, they quit doing that so most everybody goes to Knoxville to the doctor or to get their medicine.

Of course, for a long time we didn't have pharmacies there. We had a sundry store, but they would order the medicine from the pharmacy in Knoxville and it would be picked up, so that was a big help. We don't have that any more. It is quite a chore sometimes.

Like the other lady said, you have to get sick on a certain day. Even when we had the doctors we could not get sick at night. I should take that back. We have a very nice rescue unit and the rescue van takes people, so we do have that.

That is true of all the little towns down around there. Any time that anybody can improve the transportation, fine. They need other things besides that. They need to take trips; they need to get out and see a little bit of the country, which they can't do.

Usually in the fall-in October-we have the use of the van on two different Mondays, and they go places. Last year we went to Lake Rathbun as the leaves were changing. We had a sack lunch with us and everybody enjoyed that--just to get away and for something to do.

Of course, housing is a big need, too. The majority of the people are on social security, but there are several older miners and their wives that are getting black lung benefits, which I am also getting as of last November. My husband signed up for it in October 1970 and he passed away in January 1971. I was turned down four times, but I just would not give up. If anybody told me something I could do. I did it.

Then in January 1974, I read in the paper where they were going to reopen some of the old applications, so I wrote to the social security representative about that and had an appointment with him. He said the only thing left that I could possibly do would be to ask for a hearing, which I did in February. I heard nothing until June 1975, to inform me that I had a hearing for July.

In the letter they suggested that I bring an attorney with me. Well, I went to see the county attorney, but he was going to be in court that day. Then I saw three others; the last one said that it would not do any good for him to go with me as I had no more evidence to present.

APPLICATION RECONSIDERED

Well, the main reason I wanted the hearing was to find out why I was turned down-what they were basing their opinion on. So my daughter and I went alone and I got to see all the documentseverything that had transpired in that 5 years. I saw the judge, and when I left his office my daughter and I both had the same opinion that that was the end of it, but he told me that he would not even look at this further information until October and I would hear by the end of the year.

In October I received a letter that he had decided in my favor, so the latter part of November I got a check, and it was retroactive. One thing I think could be done is to hurry it up a little more, especially for that hearing. Of course, there are a lot of people that don't get it even after the hearing. It is more or less up to the judgewhat he decides to do about it.

I know for a fact that it is a wonderful thing that they have that and it really helps a lot of the people that do not get very much social security.

I believe that is all.

Senator CLARK. Thank you very much.

I want to hear now from Willis Sprunger, then we are going to have some questions and comments back and forth.

I had the occasion to meet Willis earlier this morning because I went up to visit the North Ward Plaza housing area where he lives. That is a very, very remarkable place, by the way. I had a chance to visit with most of the people there and to see various apartments, and so forth.

I hope, Willis, you might talk a little about where you lived before, how you happened to go there, and what your views are of living in the North Ward Plaza.

STATEMENT OF WILLIS SPRUNGER, WINTERSET, IOWA

Mr. SPRUNGER. I spent most of my life on the farm. That has been my past from the time I was a very young lad until I was disabled and could no longer farm. When I had to give up farming, we moved into town.

After we lived in town a year, we had our application in at the Plaza. There was an opening and we were offered the apartment that we have now. That has been our home ever since.

It has been 2 years since we moved in and I think it is a wonderful place to live. We have a lot of nice neighbors and I think I am acquainted with most of them now. It took a day or two to get acquainted, but there are not very many men there. There are mostly women there just four men, and I am one of the four men.

Senator CLARK. You are one of the lucky ones, then.

Mr. SPRUNGER. Is that lucky? [Laughter.]

Senator CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPRUNGER. I like the place very well. As I could no longer do the job I wanted. I had to give up on the farming. I think the place is just fine for a person to retire in.

I don't drive a car, but my wife does. Without her help, I don't know what I would do there. She does the cooking, keeps house, and drives

the car. Of course, I don't get to go as many places as I would like to go, but maybe I want to go too many places. [Laughter.]

Senator CLARK. You said you lived in an apartment when you first come to town. What are the advantages or disadvantages, let's say, of living at the Plaza compared to living where you did before you moved there?

Mr. SPRUNGER. Well, I just prefer the Plaza because it has its own heating system and it is a lot more even heat in the winter. We get too much heat in the summer, but I don't know what to do about that. We have an air conditioner, but if it runs long enough I freeze out and I have to go to the halls and visit with my neighbors a while to get warmed up again. [Laughter.]

CONVENIENT LOCATION

It is close to town; it is close to the grocery store. I don't go to the doctor very often any more. Maybe I should, but I don't. That would be five blocks, I believe, from the Plaza.

Senator CLARK. Can you walk to most of the things that you need from there?

Mr. SPRUNGER. My wife and I walked from the Plaza here this forenoon. I get awfully tired, and maybe I am a little lazy, but I would like to do more walking than I do.

Senator CLARK. How far are you from the grocery store at the Plaza?

Mr. SPRUNGER. A little over a block.

Senator CLARK. So you can walk to almost anything that you need. What about if you had to go too far? What would you do? What if you had to go someplace where you could not walk? What alternative do you have?

Mr. SPRUNGER. My wife would take me. We do go places away from Winterset, visiting. Some of our family live in Winterset and some of them live in Des Moines, but we don't drive to Des Moines.

Senator CLARK. Do you have access to a minibus-the people there who don't have cars?

Mr. SPRUNGER. Yes. I think I rode in the minibus once and that was a cold, snowy day. That was the last time I rode on the minibus. We have never called it since.

Senator CLARK. But if you didn't have a car, you would be using that more, would you not?

Mr. SPRUNGER. I certainly would. I don't think there are enough people who could ride on the minibus who do ride on it. They either don't know that it is available or they just don't want to ride on it. I don't know what the situation is, but it looks like a good deal for anybody that wanted to ride.

Senator CLARK. Let me ask you one other question, Willis. Do you know about how many people would like to get into the Plaza that are not able? I mean, the waiting list.

Mr. SPRUNGER. Well, I don't know how big the waiting list is, but there has been a waiting list long before we went there and there is still a waiting list. But I don't know how long it is. We had put our application in 2 years before we finally got in.

Senator CLARK. So there probably is a need for more units if they were built?

80-319-1977- 2

Mr. SPRUNGER. Oh, I am sure there is. I would not know how many more, but all the people that ever visited us there all think it is a wonderful place and they do ask questions like "How hard is it to get in?" I don't know if they are doing a little wishful thinking or if they are speaking for somebody else. I think that there would be more people come in if there was space for them or if there were more apartments or more available housing. In fact, I am sure that there would be more.

Senator CLARK. Mrs. Stroeber, I notice you said you stayed on your farm because you were able to; that is where your home is, and that is where you would prefer to live. You are obviously able to continue to live there and ride the bus in, and so forth. Have you ever had serious health problems where you felt that you were not going to be able to stay on the farm?

Mrs. STROEBER. Not in the last several years. Fifteen years ago I had cancer and was in the hospital for 3 months before I was able to come home, but my husband was still able to drive the car then. In these last few years I have been quite healthy.

Senator CLARK. The major benefit of any of the so-called elderly programs, as far as you are concerned, has been the bus?

Mrs. STROEBER. Yes.

Senator CLARK. That has been the most important thing as far as you are concerned?

Mrs. STROEBER. Yes; the transportation on the bus. Now it might be possible that, as years go on, if they build more onto that Plaza, that it would be nice. Even if they charged us more who could afford to pay more, still there would be any number that would love to live there, I am sure. As it is, I could not get in.

Senator CLARK. Let me ask you something else. It sounded as if you said when you come to town here, you come here to the meal site. Mrs. STROEBER. Yes.

Senator CLARK. On Mondays-is that right?

THE MEALS PROGRAM

Mrs. STROEBER. Yes. I do not always eat here because if you have. an appointment with a lawyer, if you have an appointment with a doctor, or some of those things, you can't get down there at 11:30.

Senator CLARK. But when you come here and eat, what do you see as the value of that program? In other words, is it a program that the Federal Government ought to continue-to try to help or not? What is your view of its value or the advantages or disadvantages of it?

Mrs. STROEBER. You mean of the meals?

Senator CLARK. The meals program, yes.

Mrs. STROEBER. I think there are big advantages, especially for the men folks who live alone. A great many of the people who have eaten here tell me that is the only hot meal they have in the day. Some of the older women just don't like to cook any more. As age comes on, it is more difficult to do things and it is easier to come here than it is to cook, so they don't cook.

Senator CLARK. Do you see any value to the program other than the food-other than the nutrition?