I don't know the way out of this dilemma, but I really believe that those of us who want the country to be behind our military men and women when they are committed need to start thinking about ways that we can assure that the country acts together at the beginning.

Senator WARNER. Mr. Chairman, we have had a good discussion here, and you know that you and I are very close in our goals, in our viewpoints. Yes, I would join you in repealing the War Powers, and yes, I would join you in trying to fashion some instrument which would enable Congress to still have a voice, other than just the prolonged power of the purse.

To conclude, I just want to ask one other question here.

There are other places in the world, are there not, Admiral, where men and women of the armed forces are in imminent danger of hostilities? I can think of some.

Admiral CROWE. Well, certainly in areas of tension and potential friction.

Senator WARNER. Surely.

It is awfully difficult to define this by statute.

Admiral CROWE. Oh, yes. I don't think there is any question about that.

Senator WARNER. And to get Congress' involvement in a sort of real-time sense.

Congress, as an institution, is established under the Constitution to take the long-term and broad view. It is not established, nor can it function, to dart in and out on quick decisionmaking about the implementation of a foreign policy decision by the armed forces of the United States.

If I may just conclude this discussion this morning, I would like very much to receive the Admiral's views with respect to the President's proposal of the arms sales to Saudi Arabia, and how the Admiral, in his capacity as Chairman, determines whether or not that proposed sale is in the best interest, the security interest, of our United States.

Admiral CROWE. Do I believe they are? Yes, I do.
Senator WARNER. For what reason, Admiral?

Admiral CROWE. Well, I believe that much of the dialogue comes up immediately that took place or transpired on reflagging, when you start discussing this.

You mentioned earlier about your own visit to the gulf that you had seen what the erosion in confidence that our policy over the years had done to the confidence that our friends in the gulf, our Arab friends, have in the United States. That policy has been in disarray now for quite some time because of a number of actions. Well, let's go right through them. It is because of Lebanon, because of our Israeli policy, because of the things that transpired in Iran, because of congressional action on arms packages, which has been a very, very important factor.

It has made it extremely difficult to have a viable U.S./Arab policy and to convince our friends in the Arab world that we are serious when we say we have their best intentions or their best interests at heart.

I happen to believe, for much the same reasons as the reflagging, that that part of the world is extremely vital to American interests

and will be for some time, until we don't rely on oil. In turn, these arms assistance packages are a very, very important element in that policy. They are modest, they are structured intentionally not to be offensive, not to be a threat to our other interests in the area, including Israel, and I believe they are not, despite some people's statements to the contrary.

The Joint Chiefs of Staff look at those proposals, as does the Office of the Secretary of Defense.

I just don't see how it can be interpreted as a threat to these other interests.

Senator WARNER. Admiral, the Senate will soon address this issue, I hope.

As I look back over the 9 years that I have been here, each of the Presidents has tried to have a balanced policy toward the State of Israel, which is our most valued friend in that area, and the moderate Arab nations, which are helping us now in terms of achieving a greater degree of peace and stability in the Persian Gulf region.

I am hopeful that Congress will examine this request by the President with an open and an objective mind and will take into consideration the gulf situation, the long-term objective to achieve peace for the Middle East, and to keep this balance between the interests of the moderate Arab States and the State of Israel.

Admiral CROWE. May I add one thing, please, Senator?

Senator WARNER. Yes.

Admiral CROWE. We must not forget that the Arab States, and in particular Saudi Arabia, have a lot of legitimate security interests besides their relationships with Israel.

Since we commenced flagging, we have seen many changes over there, not the least of which was the Mecca riots. We have seen Silkworm missiles fired by the Iranians against Kuwait. Saudi Arabia has on its southern border South Yemen.

These are all legitimate concerns in Riyadh and things they worry about all the time, and they should have the right to protect themselves and defend their security interests against other people and other things. Looking at everything, at the calculus, only in terms of the Arab-Israeli equation is a terrible mistake.

And here we are, supporting the Western Arab countries of the gulf, who are now very antsy and nervous about some of the things that have happened in Iran. They need some other weapon systems. They need some help. They need some assistance and securi

ty.

I think it is legitimate. It is legitimate not only from a political standpoint, but also from a military standpoint.

Senator WARNER. So they have within Saudi Arabia targets which militarily can be threatened by an adversary, in all probability Iran, and attacked within a matter of minutes. Am I not correct.

Admiral CROWE. Well, that is essentially right.

What it is is they are just facing great uncertainties. They don't know what is going to happen.

If you visited Saudi Arabia today, they would make this crystal clear to you in a matter of moments. They are looking East; they are not looking West.

Senator WARNER. I realize that.

When Senator Glenn and I visited there, those targets, those geopolitical considerations were pointed out to us. They view this arms sale in terms of their own security against threats primarily in the gulf region.

Admiral CROWE. They want every edge in keeping the gulf secure and stable. So do we.

That is one of our primary interests, to keep stability in the gulf. But those people who live there want the military capability to at least contribute in that regard. We have looked at these proposals to shape them in a fashion that we feel does not threaten our other basic interests. And I don't think they do.

I understand that it is controversial, though.

Chairman NUNN. Let me ask one question on that one, John.
Senator WARNER. Yes.

Chairman NUNN. What is the tank threat against Saudi Arabia? That is the one that is puzzling to me.

Admiral CROWE. It all depends. Let's be candid about it, Mr. Chairman. The possible and potential tank threat is from Iran, through Kuwait

Chairman NUNN. Are there not substantial Iraqi forces that would have to be overwhelmed first?

Admiral CROWE. Yes, there are currently. However, the fear and the concern is that, once that is resolved, and depending on how it is resolved

Senator WARNER. What is "it," now?

Admiral CROWE. The Iran-Iraq War.

Senator WARNER. Thank you.

Admiral CROWE. What will the threat do then?

If you have lived in that part of the world, you would be very nervous about it.

Senator WARNER. Is there not also a theory that Iraq might view an Iranian attack against Saudi Arabia, or Kuwait, as being in their advantage and just sort of allow it to happen so as to draw into that war, in a more active sense, the Saudi and the Kuwaiti forces?

Admiral CROWE. That's very hypothetical. I assume that is a possible scenario, Senator. The politics and the military calculus get pretty involved over there.

But that is the concern, Mr. Chairman.

I don't believe they have the worries about a sea effort or an air effort. First of all, they have some pretty good defenses. They need some buttressing, and they have some allies. But ground action from Iran really worries them.

Chairman NUNN. Admiral, I believe that we have asked most of our questions this morning. Senator Warner and I have to get back to the floor. We thank you so much for being here. We thank you for the superb job you are doing for our country, I think you will have unanimous support from this committee. Again, I will say that I don't know of any person who could do a better job in the tough position you are in today, and is going to get tougher.

We are going to have, Senator Warner, with your concurrence, a meeting to get this nomination out after the 2 o'clock vote in the Vice President's office. I would like staff to put out that notice. I have one other hypothetical question, Admiral Crowe.

Your term expires tomorrow night, your original 2 year term.
Admiral CROWE. I believe so. Yes, sir.

Chairman NUNN. If that term expired and we did not act on your confirmation, who then would be in charge of our military forces?

Admiral CROWE. Well, the same men that are now, Mr. Chairman the President and the Secretary of Defense.

Chairman NUNN. I mean beyond that. In a military uniform, who would be in charge?

Admiral CROWE. Oh, I thought I would go home and rest for a few days. [General laughter.]

Chairman NUNN. Would the Vice Chairman take over?

Admiral CROWE. I was told by my legal counsel that it is a debatable issue and we hope it won't come to that, but yes, it would be the Vice Chairman.

Senator WARNER. Perhaps it is in our best interest not to try to answer the question.

Chairman NUNN. The Vice Chairman would take over, is that not right?

Admiral CROWE. I assume so, yes.

Senator WARNER. I join the chairman in saying that you have the respect and the trust of the Senate, certainly of this committee. You have done a fine job. We are grateful that you have offered yourself for continued public service.

Admiral CROWE. Thank you very much, sir. It has been a pleas

ure.

Chairman NUNN. This hearing is concluded.

Thank you very much.

[Whereupon, at 12:40 p.m., the hearing was concluded.]

[The nomination of Admiral William J. Crowe, Jr., was reported to the Senate by Senator Sam Nunn on September 29, 1987, with the recommendation that the nomination be confirmed. The nomination was confirmed by the Senate on October 1, 1987.]