Senator WARNER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

You would not have any reluctance to exercise your own free judgment, though?

General HERRES. No, sir. I think the important place for me to do that is in the Chairman's office. I do not think I can serve the Chairman well if I become a free-wheeler and a free-thinker outside the context of developing what we think is the appropriate joint position.

Senator WARNER. I share the view that you should certainly acquaint him first and, then to some extent, the relationship with the Secretary of Defense and perhaps the Deputy Secretary should have an unfettered view.

Perhaps you can give us the Chairman's view and give your own view. We carefully wrote into the statute the right for each member of the JCS to express their views, should it be contrary to either the Chairman's or the President's, and that same theme, in my opinion, applies to your position.

One of the more difficult tasks that you will have-and I say that respectfully-is that of donning the purple suit. Although you have had a joint experience before, as you say in your own words, this is likely to be your last assignment on active duty. And, as such, I suppose that might make it a little bit easier.

But what steps are you going to take consciously to develop a truly nonpartisan view toward the other sister services?

General HERRES. I cannot think of any specific steps I would take consciously. I think I have already crossed that threshold, Senator. Today as I sit before you, I do not wear an Air Force uniform. I am "purple suited" right now. As you recall when you visited Colorado Springs, I was triple-hatted as Commander of Air Force Space Command, as well as the other two commands I mentioned.

But we have now split Air Force Space Command off and I have a separate component commander, and so I am no longer listed on an Air Force manning document. I am on joint manning documents of NORAD and U.S. Space Command, and that was really the time when I crossed the threshold, and that was a conscious decision.

We decided for a number of reasons, one of which was to make the Commander in Chief a purely "purple suited" position. The time had come and we were ready to do that since the new command had been sufficiently organized.

I guess one thing I might point out by way of background is a little bit personal, but it does influence, I guess, how one might think. My brother spent 30 years in the Army as an infantry officer and I went to the Naval Academy, so I have had plenty of exposure to the other services and their activities, notwithstanding my joint experiences.

But I do think I bring to the job as broad a perspective as is reasonable to expect.

Senator WARNER. We wish you luck. I am troubled, however, that you only have 21⁄2 years left, and our preliminary check is that you will have to step down under that retirement law.

General HERRES. No, sir. I think your law changes that now. As I understand it, there are 2-year appointments, and there can be up to 3.

Senator WARNER. That may well be.

General HERRES. But as long as I am of a different service than the Chairman

Senator WARNER. We will check that.

General HERRES. I think the law supersedes the Air Force policy of 35 years-that is my understanding.

Chairman NUNN. I am glad we have that authority.

Senator Exon.

Senator EXON. I do not have any questions, General. I just think this is an outstanding selection. I wish you well in the new responsibility that you have, that this committee worked long and hard on. They are going to miss you out at NORAD. You are in such a key role out there.

This is a tremendous advancement for you. I wish you well and I hope that anytime that you feel that we can be of help to you over here, while we might not always agree, we agree with the position you are filling; we feel it is a tremendously important one.

Good luck to you.

General HERRES. Thank you very much, Senator.

Chairman NUNN. Just one clarification on one of Senator Warner's questions or comments. It is my understanding that—and I will ask staff to clarify this and put it in the record-that the Vice Chairman is not a member officially of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He is not a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff unless he is acting in the stead of the Chairman who is not there.

So that the statutory provision that encourage written dissents would not apply to the Vice Chairman. Now, I emphasize the word "statutory." The Vice Chairman, I am sure, and the Chairman will have a relationship, and the Vice Chairman will develop and evolve in how he voices his own views, and that is a matter that I think you and the Chairman can work out. But I do not think there is a statutory directive to the Vice Chairman, as there is to the other Chiefs, to give that dissenting view.

Senator WARNER. I said in the spirit of the law that he should freely give views to Chief and Secretary of Defense and Deputy, the immediate three persons to whom you report.

General HERRES. I think you can depend on that, sir.
Chairman NUNN. I will ask staff to comment here.

Mr. LOCHER. In the conference when this issue was taken up, it was felt that the Vice Chairman, serving as the deputy to the Chairman, should not have a statutory right to present dissenting views from those of the Chairman in terms of the rights that were given to the other members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

As a matter of fact, there was also a debate as to whether the Vice Chairman should be made a member of the Joints Chiefs of Staff.

Chairman NUNN. We talked about that at length at the conference, as I recall. Didn't the House bill have that in there?

Mr. LOCHER. No, sir. It did not.

Chairman NUNN. It did not? Which bill did?

Mr. LOCHER. The Senate bill would have made the Vice Chairman a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, so it was something that the conference had to address. The way that was left in conference and in the Act was that the Vice Chairman is not a

member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and, therefore, he does not have all of the rights that are given to the other members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to dissent from the Chairman.

Chairman NUNN. Of course, there are an awful lot of people who do not have the statutory right to dissent from the Chairman but do so. So the absence of statutory authority is not always an impediment.

We were silent on that one.

Senator Gramm.

Senator GRAMM. Let me say, General, I appreciate the opportunity to visit with you again. I enjoyed our visit at Cheyenne Mountain.

As it is obvious with all of this debate as to what your real authority is and what your responsibilities are, you have a very difficult job, a job no one has ever held before, a job that was put into the bill because of the belief on the part of Members of this comImittee and Members of the House that we have the situation where, too much of the time, the Chairman was out of town and that there needed to be a continuity there that did not exist.

We got into a problem in trying to define this continuity because of the difference between a channel of communications and the chain of command. But in any case, I do not know of anybody who would be better qualified for this job than you. I am pleased that you have been chosen.

I support your nomination. I think the fact that you went to the Naval Academy will be very helpful in this job because you will know all the strange language that the people in the Navy useaye-aye, all these acronyms-and I think that that should serve you well in this effort. And I commend you to this job.

Senator EXON. I might just add that it shows what a good man he is when he got the job in spite of that.

General HERRES. Thank you very much, Senator.
Chairman NUNN. Senator Gore.

Senator GORE. You certainly have my support, General, and you come very highly recommended. Our colleague, Senator Wirth, was saying some very kind things about you just the other day on the record and off the record and I wish you well with your very important new responsibilities.

General HERRES. Thank you very much, Senator.

Senator WARNER. I have now conferred again with counsel, and the earlier opinion given to me was-I will not say incorrect-but your version is the accurate one. In this position, you will not be subjected to the Air Force policy which otherwise would require your retirement in 21⁄2 years.

I think we ought to make it eminently clear that this position is not subject to the policy of any of the services. As such, it comes up against the statutory retirement of 62, thereby giving you at least, I think, roughly 7 years; is that right?

General HERRES. The law says three 2-year terms. It is the same as the Chairman, the same ground rules as the Chairman, which is probably enough to wear anybody out.

Chairman NUNN. Also, like I say, the Vice Chairman is eligible to become the Chairman, too. That adds on how many years? You may never get out of there.

I think there is a limitation of 8 years of combined service in the two positions.

General, I wanted to ask you two or three other questions. One is we specifically put into law, after again an awful lot of debate, an awful lot of thought, a lot of good arguments on both sides, but we put into the law that the Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff-and I quote "outranks all other officers of the Armed Forces except the Chairman."

Do you understand the intent of that law?

General HERRES. My intuition tells me that you did it because you felt that when the Vice Chairman chairs the JCS meetings, you felt he should outrank the members of the JCS. That would be my interpretation.

Chairman NUNN. Correct.

How do you expect to relate to the service Chiefs? Is this going to be a matter of an objective analysis, or do you have some subjective feelings you want to share with us?

General HERRES. No. I know them all and have the greatest respect and admiration for each. Of course, I worked with General Wickham and General Kelley when I was on the Joint Staff. I have known General Welch for some time, as I have known Admiral Trost. He was in the class ahead of me at the Naval Academy.

I am sure it will be interesting. I am sure the first meeting after the Chairman is out of town will be interesting. I do think that it was nice that you put into the law that the Vice Chairman would participate in the JCS meetings, and that gives us an opportunity to have some continuity for when the Chairman is not there.

But the Chiefs are not used to having a Vice Chairman. It is going to take some adjustment on the part of all, and I hope I can make that as easy as possible and be effective at the same time, the latter being the higher priority, of course.

Chairman NUNN. I believe he anticipated that question.

General HERRES. No, but I have thought about it a lot, though. Chairman NUNN. The Chairman has authority to reorganize the Joint Staff. Have you had a chance—I know you have been busy in your present job-have you had a chance to talk to the Chairman about that reorganization and the extent to which he has undertaken that and where it is going?

General HERRES. A little bit. And also the Chairman has explained all of that in letters to all Commanders in Chief. He keeps us posted from time to time on what is going on in the Joint Staff. It is a big step. Really it is kind of a continuation of an evolution that began several years ago under General Vessey-the establishment of the J-7 and J-8. I know General Vessey was always anxious to find ways to develop other approaches to the development of joint tactics, doctrine and techniques, and also to play a more significant role in the acquisition and the Defense Resources Board proceedings and activities.

You recall that you all authorized several years ago some additonal spaces for what was called a SPRAA, and that SPRAA has evolved into one of the directorates under this new setup. I think that arrangement goes a long way toward implementing some of the intent of the new law as well.

It will be interesting. It will be a challenge to glue that all together, too, but I think it will give us better opportunities. Of course, the significance again of the Chairman's capacity not to direct the Joint Staff directly, rather than on behalf of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, adds to the importance of what has been done.

Chairman NUNN. What about the overall power and authority and repsonsibility of the managing Commanders in Chief in the field, what we call combatant commanders? Have you read the legislation on that and do you have any views on the change from the previous law?

General HERRES. Obviously, as a Commander in Chief, I think the improvements are great. I think the law does what was intended, and as I have explained it to others who have asked me about it, it tends to strike a better balance, in changing times, between the two chains of command, the resource management and force structuring chain of command, and the operational and employment chain of command.

I do think, as I told the Nichols subcommittee last year, it is important to still keep some daylight between those two chains of command, and I think that if you get the CINCS into the resource management and force structuring business, you may blur that daylight a little bit. That could be dangerous, too, because there are some good reasons for having that daylight.

Furthermore, one has to consider that, as has been said before, if you let every commander in chief design his service department component the way he wants it, you will have seven armies and seven navies and seven air forces. And we cannot afford that.

Chairman NUNN. How do you read the law? Do you think there is daylight left under the law?

General HERRES. Yes, sir. I think it is a good balance.

Chairman NUNN. Do you think the proper balance has been struck, at least as far as you see now?

General HERRES. It is too soon to tell. The things that are in the law now have to jell. The concrete has to set around them. And what kind of a job we do in the next 3 to 5 years will probably provide the answer to your question-the unwritten answer to your question. And I accept the challenge to try and help make all that happen, too.

I think you have given us the tools with which to do that. What is now left to happen is the natural evolutionary strengthening. You can feed the other (joint) chain of command, but the muscles have to be formed, and that is the job that lies ahead.

Chairman NUNN. We are having a series of hearings on military strategy and I think almost everybody who has testified, whether they are a part of the military or civilian or whether they are former officials, have concluded that in this administration as well as previous administrations, Republican and Democratic, we have not had as much in the way of strategic thinking as we need. I believe that is a fair summary of what people have said.

Do you have any views about the role of the Chairman and Vice Chairman and the Joint Staff in evolving and updating both military strategy and what we call net assessment?

General HERRES. Of course, there will be a significant role played in the net assessment role. Part of the reorganization is to