concept of retirement preparation to reach these older men and even at a much earlier age, to talk about the positive aspects of retirement and to help them to do some positive thinking about planning in their own behalf.

I think that this is an approach which the trade unions can take but I think additionally that as a matter of public policy educational institutions should be encouraged to participate in this effort.

For example, recently, in Detroit, I was talking to an adult educator about this problem in the public schools and he was complaining bitterly about the fact that older people generally seem to be in opposition to better schools, and I said, "Well, one reason I think they are is because they do not see themselves as having any stake in better schools. Have you ever thought about what you might do to open up opportunities and preparations for retired adult education in order to bring these people into camp?"

He said, "This is a wonderful idea. I don't know why we never thought of it."

This does not necessarily cost a great amount of funds. The school facilities are available. The difficulty is that they want everybody to participate on their terms. They are not very willing, at least in Detroit, to accommodate their program to the needs of the people we are talking about.

Senator RANDOLPH. May I comment?

Senator MCNAMARA. Glad to have you, sir.

Senator RANDOLPH. Our discussion envisages the bringing of these people together for education, recreation, and affirmative thinking and acting. Is there a role that you believe the Federal Government should play in connection with perhaps financial assistance or leadership in these so-called day centers? I do not like the words "day centers" too much, but I mean the same kind of program.

Mr. ODELL. There is a role for the Federal Government very definitely in providing leadership in this field. At an earlier point I suggested that both the U.S. Office of Education and, perhaps, because it is a logical place in terms of how we use the resources in the field, the Bureau of Old Age and Survivors Insurance field offices, should be encouraged to provide some kind of technical assistance and leadership to States and communities.

Senator RANDOLPH. The witness is saying affirmatively that rather than consider these persons strictly as statistics, they are personalities. Mr. ODELL. That is right.

I think they are increasingly aware of the fact that they can prepare themselves. As a matter of fact, we did a survey in one plant in Anderson, Ind., where we found that out of the total work force of about 1,500 people over 45 years of age in the plant, 350 were willing to volunteer tomorrow morning to become involved in a program of retirement preparation education.

This was not at 65 or 60; this was in the age group of for the most part, 45 to 55.

Senator MCNAMARA. That is very interesting.

Senator RANDOLPH. When you speak of retirement preparation, do you feel that whether it is a personal preparation or community preparation that there is a role for the Federal Government in this effort?"

Mr. ODELL. I certainly do. I don't think that great amounts of money are involved. I think that the important thing is for ideas

and information and technical aid to go to the States through existing institutions, such as your State departments of education, local school boards, colleges and universities, and agencies, and there are a great many at the local level. I think with a little bit of help of pooling together ideas and education of what is going on that a great deal could be accomplished to stimulate State and local action in this

field.

But I don't think it will be done if we keep saying that it is a local responsibility and that the Federal Government should not get involved in it.

Senator RANDOLPH. In your discussion, Mr. Odell, of education and its impact in this area, I hope I may be pardoned to tell this story. Senator MCNAMARA. Go right ahead, sir.

Senator RANDOLPH. There was a professor who was rating examination papers, and one of his former students came into the room and is supposed to have looked over his shoulder and found that the questions he was asking of that class in that year were the same questions that he had been asking 25 years before when this student was in his class. And he said to the professor, "Aren't you afraid that the students will pass on the answers from one year to the next?” The professor replied, "No; that does not bother me. same questions every year. I just change the answers."

I ask the

Mr. Chairman, I think we must be creative here and find new answers to some of these continuing problems.

I appreciate the way our witness helps us.

Senator MCNAMARA. I think you have a real good point-that the answers are different from time to time in all these problems.

I think at one point, Mr. Sargent, you wanted to interject something there. Were you cut off?

Mr. SARGENT. I think it is all right.

Senator MCNAMARA. Mr. Williams?

Mr. WILLIAMS. There has been some criticism of Federal leadership here, and I would like to state on the record that as far as Pennsylvania is concerned the program of the Bureau of Employment and Security in the Department of Labor for placing older workers has been a model of leadership and good practical assistance.

I think that probably Mr. Odell deserves a good deal of credit for that, because it started under him; but we do believe that this program is good and very helpful, and that it has been carried on exceptionally well by the people who followed him.

Senator MCNAMARA. Thank you.

LEGISLATION PROHIBITING AGE DISCRIMINATION

Professor GINZBERG. One of the panel members made an initial pitch and somebody else made an even stronger pitch for Federal legislation on discrimination against older people in employment.

I would personally place a much lower valuation, almost to the vanishing point, on the effectiveness of any such action. I do not know what has been going on in Massachusetts, although I am a resident of Massachusetts in the summertime, but what I have heard in general is that there are some severe limitations to the legislative approach even at the State level.

I would not know what the basis would be for the Federal Government to move this way. If you have a concept of a hierarchy of steps you want to take, I would put this very, very low in the scheme of things.

There are, from the employer's point of view, relevant reasons to be concerned about age. Take pilots. You cannot ask an airline not to be concerned about the age of people they want to employ to be pilots. This means that one must write legislation to distinguish between the relevant and irrelevant factors.

Thinking back to Mr. Williams' point that you seldom have age as a barrier alone, that would mean, and I am no lawyer, but it would just look to me to be very difficult to think that you are going to get much return by statute on what is a very complicated problem.

Senator MCNAMARA. I am astonished at how many people are apologizing these days for being lawyers and how many are bragging that they are not.

Did you have a comment on that, Mr. Williams, since you were brought in?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Probably Mr. Odell ought to comment on it because I did put mine last.

Senator MCNAMARA. Go right ahead, sir.

Mr. ODELL. I don't quite agree with this because in spite of the difficulties involved in the administration of the law, theoretically and hypothetically, the experience of the States that have the law is that there is no administrative problem whatsoever. In part, this is due, I think, to the fact that they do not get adequate appropriations to do anything about it and in part I think it is because it is a complex concept.

The older worker does run the steeplechase of discriminatory requirements which have nothing to do with age. As a personnel man, if you don't get them on age you can get them on physical requirements. If you don't get them on that, there are educational requirements. If you don't get them on that, there are psychological tests.

The reason I would put a higher priority on this than Dr. Ginzberg is because I am looking for a handle around which to stimulate this volunteerism in this education process we talk about. It seems to me that the only way we create a climate in which you begin to get this kind of thinking is to present the decisionmakers, the policymakers and the practitioners in this field with the necessity of doing some creative thinking about alternatives. This is one way of bringing that into some kind of focus.

If we did nothing else but hold hearings on these bills, as they did in New York, and to get employers to come in and voluntarily subscribe to eliminate known discriminatory practices (Phil Kaiser can tell you all about that), I think this is a step in the right direction.

A statement of public policy, whether completely enforceable or not is an important weapon in the fight to achieve greater flexibility and voluntarism in this field.

Professor GINZBERG. If Mr. Odell is right and you are going to get a lot of good things because you are going to threaten to pass this law, I am in favor of it.

If you are going to pass this law and you will get a good thing from it, I would be in favor of it. The fear I have is that you could con

ceivably pass the law and assume it was going to do a lot of things for you and merely negate alternative actions because I do not think the law would do very much.

Senator MCNAMARA. That is a hazard.

Is Mr. Kaiser still in the room? I think at this point he might have something to say about it.

How about it, Mr. Kaiser?

STATEMENT OF PHILIP KAISER, PROFESSOR, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT ON AGING TO FORMER GOVERNOR AVERELL HARRIMAN, OF NEW YORK

Mr. KAISER. I am not sure that I can throw much more light on the subject than have your distinguished panelists. I think the range in trying to analyze the impact that a law of this kind would have, we do have the law in New York State, which is, I think, too young still, it has been in effect less than a year, so one cannot derive yet any meaningful conclusions from its operation, but all I can do is underline really what my two good friends, Professor Ginzberg and Mr. Odell, have said, and indicate that my prejudice lies in Mr. Odell's direction, that there are these considerations that have been mentioned by the gentleman on the left, but the pluses I think exceed the minuses so far as the impact of a law of this kind is concerned, assuming always that it would be properly, adequately, and properly administered, that there had been enough money to do it, adequately and properly.

I have in mind the whole spectrum of considerations involved here, that is, with regard to age.

I may say, Eli, that I understand the best airline pilots, commercial, are in the late fifties, but a better example given are chorus girls. It is true that there would have to be some provision made so that a show impressario would not have to hire a gal of 58 if she applied for the job of chorus girl in a musical.

Senator MCNAMARA. We might carry that as far as hostesses go, but let us quit there.

Mr. WILLIAMS. This problem of administration is really not a very difficult one. We have had the law in Pennsylvania for about 212 years, and various groups, notably law enforcement agencies from the various public bodies, have come to the Fair Employment Practices Commission and requested some dispensation from the ruling. It is a simple matter for the Commission to meet and consider the merits of the case and then decide that in this particular case the employer can discriminate on the basis of age.

There is really no problem of administration in this law and it has had some good results. For instance, there are a number of people who will obey a law even if it is not enforcible, which is to our credit. There are also a number of public bodies who have reacted favorably. In Philadelphia there was a ruling that did not allow hiring schoolteachers over 50.

When the law came in, that ruling was changed, and now you can get a job as a schoolteacher in Philadelphia up to 63. This has helped a number of people. So, the law can be useful.

43350-59-pt. 1-11

But I would agree with Professor Ginzberg's point that it is very illusory to think that the law is a solution to the overall problem of employment for the older worker.

Senator MCNAMARA. Gentlemen, I thank you very much. I think we have a fine record and you have made a great contribution to our hearings. I am sure that the Senate appreciates your help in this farreaching matter.

Thank you again.

The hearings will resume at 9:30 o'clock tomorrow morning in this

room.

The hearing is adjourned.

(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the subcommittee was recessed, to reconvene at 9:30 a.m., Thursday, June 18, 1959.)