I could talk a lot about that we could live below our income, we could go and buy some dog food and live on that, but if we go on dog food then they jack up the price so it won't do us any good, so we insist on our Senators and Congressmen to do something and do it so that in future we are not-we don't need to have meetings like these, you know, that we bring up our needs or something like that. We should get the men there that they know our needs. Thank you.

Senator MCNAMARA. Thank you very much, sir. We used to have lobbyists but I think you do a very good job. Certainly you make your position very clear. We are glad to have it on the record. Thank you.

Mr. ADAMSKI. Senator, I am Fred Adamski. I am legislative agent for the retired teachers of the State.

Senator MCNAMARA. Not a lobbyist?

Mr. ADAMSKI. No, not exactly. I want to add one little thing here, something that Mr. Lampkins said. Now this is for his benefit as well as for the benefit of his colored friends in the audience.

When this great Creator, when I say great Creator that isn't at all descriptive, when He created things, He wanted a lot of different colored flowers, didn't He? He wanted different colored birds and He didn't want all palefaces either, so I think we should be proud of our color, whether ít be red, yellow, white, or a Negro. You understand me?

Now, folks, here I have a copy of a survey made by our Jackson group. They received 150 letters, which is a very good cross section of the conditions throughout the State. First of all, we found from these letters, these 150 letters, that there was a great lack of medical attention.

You folks remember this is all based on this 48-cent dollar we have nowadays. They depended on relatives or friends for clothes, books, magazines, transportation, even food. Fourth-no, this is third. Inadequate housing. Many of them have been forced to sell their

homes.

Fourth, the necessity of discontinuing the cultural activity to which they had been accustomed, forced to drop health insurance because of insufficient incomes. Six attempts to supplement their income by employment although unequal to the jobs because of age or ill health.

Fifth, many find themselves alone and dependent after having cared for relatives during their early years in which their salaries were much lower than teachers' salaries have been in more recent years.

Now, folks, of course the thing to remember about these poor folks is that they are proud. I don't know, Senator, whether you find that the rule among the legislators or not, but our teachers are proud and it is hard to find out the true condition of these people. We just have to seek them out. Now they are just going away, just waiting for death, and we certainly can't push them over the cliff, and it has been my experience in Lansing that I found some faces there, and you probably have seen some yourself whose faces appeared embalmed with hearts of stone.

Now we have an excerpt from a letter written from the retirement board by Mr. Van Zwoll-you probably know him. I will read this paragraph:

The argument for this bill is the need of some 4,518 retired persons who are receiving allowances which are far from adequate in today's economic situation. The majority of these people are receiving between $33 and $100 per month.

Many of them are old people with high medical costs and their present allowances in many cases represent actual hardship. This agency urges the passage of the bill on the basis of the need of these retired people. The argument against the bill is only the cost that is involved. While this is a serious matter, particularly in view of the State's financial condition at this time, the board feels that these people should be given special consideration from the State and that financing required should be considered together with other current financial problems of the State.

Now if we can't succeed we will say with the State to give us adequate incomes why we will just have to, as Mrs. Neis mentioned, turn to social security. We have got to give them a little dignity before they die. That's all.

Of course they have served always. Whenever any agency came around the teachers were the first ones that were hit for a contribution. I have before me here 13 States of this good old United States of America that pay more than does Michigan, and, as you folks know, it is pretty tough getting along on $33 to $100 per month. Now I would like to add one more thing, if I may, in connection with what the gentleman said here.

I taught in Saginaw a long time and while there I learned that as many as 18 colored folks used 1 bathroom. Thank you.

Senator MCNAMARA. Thank you very much. I am sure we find many of our elder citizens, regardless of color, in similar categories in large areas. We have had much testimony along those lines. Thank you for that very fine presentation and we are glad to have it for our records.

Go right ahead, sir.

Mr. WYNGAARDEN. My name is Martin J. Wyngaarden, professor at Calvin College and Seminary since 1924 and now taking summer courses in library science at the University of Michigan. I took cataloging last summer at Ann Arbor and am to be retired in 1961 at the age of 71 from Calvin College and Seminary. Suppose you take the case of university and college professors in general. They must retire at the age of 65, or 68, or 70. Their pensions are inadequate for inflationary prices. After retirement they may have to work wherever they can get work, but if they work, their social security payments have a way of diminishing until those professors have reached the age of 72. Would it not be better to substitute the age of 70 for the age of 72? That would give those professors a better chance to make the transition to some other kind of work for which they may have to be trained with considerable expense. Thank you.

Senator MCNAMARA. Thank you very much.

Mr. JONES. Senator, my name is James C. Jones, and I am from Grand Rapids. I sanction all that Brother Lampkins has said. The only trouble about me is that people won't believe I am as old as I am, but I am and here are some recommendations that I have made alongside of Mr. Lampkins, and I will read them to you. I will be very brief. Equal social security and larger benefits. Old persons who are physically capable should be allowed to work. These have all been gone over but I want to read them because I wrote them. Automatic retirement at age 60 or 65 should not apply without consideration to the abilities of the individual. Old persons should just accept the fact of age and grow old gracefully. I thank you.

Senator MCNAMARA. Thank you, sir.

Mrs. GORDON. Senator, my name is Irene Gordon. I am on old-age assistance. I have to pay taxes on everything I buy-everything. I am in a home and I have to pay rent, and when I had coal I could get coal on credit and now we have got gas and I have to pay cash for gas, and I am speaking for old-age people. We cannot stay with our people. People, every time we have a lady to come to us, they want us to go and live with our children. Our children have their problems. There is no man wants his mother-in-law to come and live with him, and no woman wants her husband's mother to come because she wants to be mistress of her own home, and therefore we would rather stay alone. We are not able to work and we are thankful for what you are giving us but just think about it, everybody likes fun, and I have a sport that I like. I like to go fishing and I have to pay $2 for a fishing license, so I thank you.

Senator MCNAMARA. Thank you very much. You certainly highlight some of the real problems that we have heard over and over again from many people throughout the country.

Go right ahead, sir.

Mr. RULE. Senator McNamara, my name is Ulysses Grant Rule. I have worked for General Motors for over 10 years. I am wearing a pin now for 10 years' service and I am very sorry now that this retirement law has came up and because the job I was doing out there I could have kept it until I was a hundred years old. My first wife was sick on my hands 15 years. My second wife, present wife now, has been sick on my hands for 7 years, and she has been in the hospital several times. She has been under the care of a doctor this entire 7 years, and before the retirement came in I bought-I was seeking to buy a home and I didn't have it very long before the retirement came in and when the time come for me to retire it makes it pretty hard. I received $157 a month social security. My taxes is going up and I have to pay my fire insurance and automobile insurance and pay for my medicine and retired at General Motors at the age of 68. My next birthday on the coming 10th day of May, I will only be 75 and I have tried to get part-time jobs, and as soon as they found out how old I was, they couldn't do anything for me, and my expenses of my home, overhead expenses runs $50 a week, and it makes it hard for me to meet my bills when I only receive $157 a month social security and I would be glad to get help some way or another to kind of meet my bills. Thank you very much.

Senator MCNAMARA. Thank you very much. This seems to be all. We thank these people here is one man. We will be glad to hear from you, sir. Step right up.

Mr. REYNOLDS. My name is James Reynolds. I am deputy chief of staff of World War I veterans organization, and I am here in behalf of the old people and I do believe as one man said $33 a month for a man that has that for his wife, even if he owns his home in this kind of weather it is going to cost him $20 to $30 a month fuel bill in Michigan any way. Of course, in Florida it might be better. I have enough I can get by. I am not worried about myself. I am worried about the other old people and I am worried about the old World War veterans. A lot of them never draw no social security because they were out of the running before social security came along and a lot of them were farmers and such as that. I myself, I

am a farmer but I worked for General Motors for several years and that's what gives me my income but on this being sick. I keep good insurance and it costs me a couple of hundred dollars a year for my family. You can see where $33 a month social security would go on that kind of insurance. I think the Government had ought to take over the doctoring of the low-pay social security people and either insure them against sickness or I am a little bit against socialized medicine because then you don't get the doctor you want but they should do something about it one way or the other, and on the welfare deal if they do, and welfare, if I understand it, it costs 50 cents of every dollar to administer welfare one way and another so that costs the Government, State or whoever has plenty of money, so I believe hand it right out to the old people in some form or another, even if you have to raise the taxes on social security that a young man can pay.

When I worked at GM I never missed my social security payments. The only thing that bothered me was that income tax and I am not alone. I am in a low-income bracket and income tax hurts a man. There is no argument in that when you have to pay $20 or $30 a week, you know, and then you take a fifth of your pay out for income tax, it begins to hurt. That's all I have to say.

Senator MCNAMARA. Thank you very much, sir. We certainly recognize the plight of the World War I veterans and they have not been a forgotten group in our society.

Go right ahead, young lady.

Mrs. PHILLIPS. I am Mrs. Paul Phillips and I have really enjoyed the morning but being a woman and being curious I would like to know what is that machine and how does it operate?

Mr. SPECTOR. She was interested in the transcribing operation over here. This gentleman is transcribing the record.

Senator MCNAMARA. This is most important. We are making a complete record of everything that happens here. He talks in this machine that records his voice and he then transcribes it, makes a record of it and it then becomes a part of the permanent records of this committee.

Mr. RANDALL. Will that be played back in the Halls of Congress! Senator MCNAMARA. No, he just plays it back to himself. It is transcribed and a record is completely made and the record will be in the hands of this subcommittee and a report will be drawn from the record and presented to the Senate of the United States for their consideration and recommendation.

Mr. RANDALL. Senator, when you go back to Washington, take our great and grand and glorious Congressman from Grand Rapids under your wing and let him know there are people on this earth who haven't as much money as he has.

Senator MCNAMARA. I am sure he recognizes that although sometimes you wonder about people in public life; whether they do recog nize the problems of the people, and I am not referring to anyone, a Congressman or any other public official.

Mr. RANDALL. He could do a lot more down there in the Halls of Congress to help the people back here, especially Michigan, the common people. That's what we want, be with the common people. Senator MCNAMARA. The hearing is recessed until 1 o'clock this afternoon for a subcommittee tour of the Maple Grove Medical Fa

cility and nursing homes. We reconvene in this auditorium at 3 p.m. Thanks very much for your attention.

(Whereupon, at 12 o'clock noon a recess was taken until 3 p.m.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

(Whereupon the hearing resumed, pursuant to the taking of the recess, at 3 p.m.)

Senator MCNAMARA. The hearing will be in order. The first witness this afternoon is Mr. August Scholle, president of the State AFLCIO organization, Lansing.

Mr. Scholle, I see you have a prepared statement. Does the recorder have a copy? We will see that the statement will be printed in full in the record and we will ask you to summarize in your own manner. You may proceed at your convenience, and will you pull the mike over to you a little bit because it is kind of hard to hear in the back of the room.

STATEMENT OF AUGUST SCHOLLE, PRESIDENT, MICHIGAN STATE AFL-CIO, LANSING, MICH.

Mr. SCHOLLE. All right, Senator McNamara, I don't want to burden you with reading the entire testimony that I am providing. It would be too long. I would like to point out, however, I have broken this down in two different categories, primarily talking first about the group of workers who have not yet reached the retirement age, and secondly, the other group who have. I think you will recall that last week I made some recommendations before the Senate Committee on Unemployment Problems, on which you are also serving, for a system of permanent unemployment insurance strongly emphasizing retraining and relocation of workers after they have been out of work for a substantial period of time. Our experience indicates that in many instances the people who have been laid off from the plant in which they have been employed from 30 years, and in many instances as with Hudson and Packard workers in Detroit, where they had been employed for as many as 36 and 37 years have reached the age of 50 or more. Their seniority, of course, was meaningless as a result of the plant having closed down.

In many instances these people have been looking for jobs from anywhere from 5 to 8 years, and many of them who have been seeking work constantly for as long as 8 years have as yet failed to obtain employment.

FEDERAL ANTI-AGE DISCRIMINATION LAW RECOMMENDED

While I have tried to tie some of this together (and I want to go through this very rapidly), on page 4 of my statement I have the first suggestion in relation to legislation on a Federal basis. One thing that would help, as we said there, is a national law outlawing discrimination in employment on the basis of age which would have sufficient legal teeth and an administrative staff to permit a sound and effective educational and enforcement machinery.