benefit from the construction of Ice Harbor alone that we would get from the development of the full system.

Mr. BOLAND. Could you give the mileage from Lewiston to the Columbia River?

General FOOTE. I will give it to you approximately, sir. It is about 120 miles from Lewiston to Ice Harbor.

Mr. BOLAND. Is there any prospect for navigation east of Lewiston on the Snake?

General FOOTE. The section of the Snake River immediately upstream from Lewiston for a distance of about 30 miles may eventually be developed for navigation because there is a very substantial deposit of limestone up there which is required and used throughout agricultural regions extensively for fertilizer, agricultural lime.

Mr. BOLAND. I have no more questions except that I would like to say this: I do not believe that just because you have particular bulk products we ought to necessarily use water transportation. There are plenty of areas in this country where bulk materials are found that are carried by land transportation. It seems every single time we consider water transportation the argument is advanced for the use of water transportation for bulk materials. The argument is advanced that you can move great tonnages of material in bulk on these waterways, which, it is argued, consequently reflects a cheaper cost to the producer.

However, in my judgment that does not follow at all.

That is all.

Mr. MAGNUSON. Is it not true that railroad freight rates in this part of the country are the highest in the Nation? This is not exactly your field.

Mr. BOLAND. If they are higher than New England, let me know.
Mr. MAGNUSON. They are much higher.

Mr. BOLAND. I do not think so.

Mr. MURRAY. We have very reasonable rates in the Middle West.
Mr. MAGNUSON. You are lucky.

Mr. JENSEN. We are building and have already built some dans on the upper reaches of the Snake River. I wonder if you would point out and tell us where those particular dams are. Maybe Mr. Dexheimer would do that?

General FOOTE. The Bureau of Reclamation developed many more than the Corps of Engineers.

Mr. DEXHEIMER. The Snake covers all of this territory clear dow to its confluence with the Columbia at this point. And these dams that you see labeled in red are the ones we have built, all the way throug! : the Palisades Dam is under construction at the present time. The rest of these up here are built now.

Mr. JENSEN. Most of them are power dams, multipurpose dams?
Mr. DEXHEIMER. They are essentially for irrigation.

Mr. JENSEN. But there is power involved?

Mr. DEXHEIMER. Those that have power potential have power them.

Mr. JENSEN. Go ahead, Mr. Dexheimer. You have some more d there. How many dams, altogether, are built on the Snake: eunder construction or completed on the Snake River?

Mr. DEXHEIMER. Including the tributaries of the Snake, I wo have to count them up, but there are 20 down to this point and the

potential dams just talked about, 4 down to and including Ice Harbor. Mr. JENSEN. The reason I bring that out is this: All those dams on the Snake River are keeping water from that point where you figure on building the proposed Ice Harbor Dam, and the other three; is that right?

Mr. DEXHEIMER. Yes, sir; they keep water. Some of them are almost all irrigation, but there are some for flood control also.

Mr. JENSEN. Now, I am wondering how much water we are going to have up there that will be available for navigation purposes and even for hydroelectric power. It appears to me that we are attempting to do something with water that we have not sufficient water to do with.

Maybe I am mistaken on that, maybe there will be more water available in that area where you are proposing four dams than I think will be available.

What is the story on that?

General FOOTE. The operation, Mr. Jensen, of those irrigation reservoirs serves to regulate streamflow and with the return from your irrigation diversion you actually get a beneficial effect on your flow at the time it is critically low during winter months. That is, you get an increase in your low-water flow. So that, as far as navigation and power development downstream are concerned at this stage of the game, I am confident that the effect of those reservoirs is a beneficial rather than an adverse effect. Also, as far as the lower Snake River

Mr. JENSEN. A lot of water is taken from those reservoirs for irrigation purposes?

General FOOTE. But two-thirds of the water, sir, in the lower Snake River does not come from the upper Snake. It comes from the Salmon and from the Clearwater.

Mr. JENSEN. It does?

General FOOTE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENSEN. That is what I am trying to find out. You can understand my reason for asking the question since so much water is retained in the upper reaches of the Snake River by all of those dams which Mr. Dexheimer pointed out, a layman could easily come to the conclusion that there would be very little water left to make power and navigation in the lower reaches where you propose these four dams.

How many acre-feet of water will flow through the Ice Harbor Dam, if and when constructed?

Mr. DEXHEIMER. While he is looking for that I would like to point out that our studies on the Snake

Mr. RABAUT. It appears to me we are not going to be able to complete this discussion this morning.

Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. RABAUT. We will adjourn at this time until 2 o'clock.

Any further questions on Ice Harbor lock and dam?

Mr. MAGNUSON. I have some more questions, Mr. Chairman.

Just before the noon recess, General Foote, Mr. Jensen was raising a question of whether there would be water enough in the Snake for the Ice Harbor operation, partly on account of water which is retained upstream in some of these Bureau of Reclamation projects.

Is it not true that there is substantial underground flow into the Snake River below the Bureau's upstream project?

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or GARRETT. Sir, the navigation benefits of this project are ,000 annually of a total benefit of $7,667,000 annually.

DAVIS. That is about 14 percent; is it not?

or GARRETT. It is almost 1 out of 8.

DAVIS. Are you in a position to make an estimate of what part se navigation benefits would be received in the absence of the uction of the other three dams?

eral FOOTE. In the order of about one-sixth, sir. I can supply a exact figure for the record if you would like.

. DAVIS. I think if you made that kind of an assumption, and we dealing with this project, and this project only, the navigation its that would not accrue if you didn't build the other three, it d seem to me this would be a project with a benefit-cost ratio of to unity, and no more than that.

neral FOOTE. A marginal project, very close to unity, sir.

r. DAVIS. I would assume that all of these benefits which are ded, and at some length, were included in order to get this figure of fit-cost ratio which you have in your justifications.

eneral FOOTE. No, sir; not entirely. The lower Snake River depment was authorized as 1 project, and the 4-dam plan was pted and approved as the authorized plan, so that we feel we are easonably firm ground in basing our economic analysis upon the orizations that exist.

TOTAL COST OF PROJECT

[r. DAVIS. I note you have an estimate of $135 million on this one . Not more than a couple years ago this had an estimated cost of than $100 million; did it not?

feneral ITSCHNER. I cannot recall, sir, it was less. It may have been. million, or something like that, but the figures have been up above 0 million for the last several years.

Mr. DAVIS. I have been handed the planning report which indicates t as of 1948 the estimate was $88.7 million.

General ITSCHNER. But the general rise of prices since that time has en very substantial, and at today's values it would show a much rh amount than that..

Mr. DAVIS. The last figure I can recall for these 4 projects was someing in the neighborhood of $400 million total. What is your estimate the four of them now?

Major GARRETT. $513 million now, sir, for General ITSCHNER. I have an estimate for red in 1952, and it was $104 million then. Mr. DAVIS. Is this $135 million estimate now >mputation?

General FOOTE. Yes, sir; a very substantial return flow. I can give you, Mr. Magnuson, the total flows available at Ice Harbor at the mouth of the Snake River, which I believe will fully answer that question.

Mr. MAGNUSON. As a matter of fact, do not the studies of the Army engineers and the Bureau of Reclamation show not only that the Snake will provide sufficient water for Ice Harbor but also Little Goose, Lower Monumental, Lower Granite, and even Hells Canyon, with its 4 million acre-feet of storage?

General FOOTE. That is correct. Hells Canyon storage possibly would not be filled every year, but there is adequate water for the full operation of the project. Total average annual flow at the mouth of the Snake River is 34.9 million acre-feet. The present depletion for irrigation and other consumptive use is estimated to reduce that to 30.9 million acre-feet, and future depletions for consumptive use are estimated to reduce the total average annual flow to 26.8 million acrefeet annually, so there would be a very adequate supply of water on the lower reaches of the Snake River.

Mr. MAGNUSON. I wanted to take up briefly the criticism we heard of the navigation feature not only of Ice Harbor but the projected dams farther up the Snake.

The Federal Government has taken responsibility for navigable streams ever since its inception; has it not?

General FOOTE. Yes, sir.

Mr. MAGNUSON. We have been improving rivers and harbors for navigation purposes for 150 years.

General FOOTE. That is correct.

Mr. MAGNUSON. This is a fixed policy of the United States Government historically. Is that correct?

General FOOTE. Yes, sir.

Mr. MAGNUSON. We have provision for navigation in the Columbia dams below the confluence of the Columbia with the Snake, have we not, in all of those dams?

General FooTE. Yes.

Mr. MAGNUSON. Bonneville, The Dalles, and the McNary? General FOOTE. And John Day, which is in the planning stage. Mr. MAGNUSON. Would it not be pretty shortsighted to have naviga tion up to Pasco and not extend it up the Snake?

General FOOTE. If the navigation development of the Snake River were not carried out, the Columbia River system, that is the lower river below the mouth of the Snake, would not be fully utilized as we have contemplated that it would be with a completely developed navigation system on the Columbia River and tributaries. That is, we would fall somewhat short of the presently planned navigation deve.opment in that basin.

Mr. MAGNUSON. Without navigation on the Snake would your nav;gation features on the lower Columbia be justified?

General FOOTE. I believe they would; yes, sir.

Mr MAGNUSON. But not as well justified?

General FOOTE. Not as well justified.

Mr. MAGNUSON. Is it not a fact, General, that 65 percent of :e potential river traffic for the Columbia would come into the river, that is, the Snake River, above Ice Harbor?