Teacher's Retirement System, would be affected by S.11. S.11 would

allow the State to exchange these parcels for BLM lands in the

State of equal value. However, the BLM has said that there are

insufficient comparable lands available for exchange.

of the State parcels affected by the bill, we have identified 216

parcels with recognized mineral values. These minerals include

gold, silver, limestone, tungsten and manganese. 160 of the State

parcels contain minerals defined by the Department of Defense as

"strategic". The potential State revenue loss directly impacts the

State Teacher's Retirement System, which receives the revenue

benefit from these lands. That retirement system currently has an

unfunded liability of approximately $10 billion.

In closing, I would emphasize our current support of the BLM Desert

Plan which involved a substantial public participation process, but

in so doing indicate that we are willing to work with this

committee in the context of your deliberations on this measure.

The wildlife biologists, our hunters, recreationists and myriad

other groups, will be watching S.11 to see that our State's

concerns are addressed. I ask that you carefully consider the

recommendations that I have presented, and I thank you for your

time.

Senator BUMPERS. Does California have a bighorn sheep hunting season?

Mr. WARD. I think there has been in one area, but that is secondhand information. I can get you specific information on that.

Senator BUMPERS. I wish you would. I mean, if that population is declining, I do not understand why California would permit them to be taken.

Mr. WARD. It is actually proliferating. It was declining in Death Valley, which was the area that I indicated was not being allowed to have any of the man-altered forms of water facilities so that these bighorn sheep can proliferate.

In fact, I think if your staff will recall, the maps that we produced that show a series of guzzlers that are basically in the center of the East Mojave proposed national park are really-they show proliferation of the bighorn sheep in that area as a result of those manmade watering facilities.

And I might add, Senators, these are maintained largely by volunteer groups that go in and maintain these. It is certainly not the kind of activity that you are going to go in with a backpack and a pick and shovel.

Senator BUMPERS. My last question pertains to these mineral areas that apparently belong to the California Teachers' Association-is that correct?

Mr. WARD. They are managed through the State Lands Commission, which is an agency of the State of California, but essentially the primary benefit of any revenues that accrue.

Senator BUMPERS. That is the Retirement System?

Mr. WARD. That is correct.

Senator BUMPERS. There are 200-plus areas?

Mr. WARD. There are over 600 that are affected by the act, but we have identified 220 that have mineral potential on them. Senator BUMPERS. Are you talking about areas?

Mr. WARD. These are parcels.

Senator BUMPERS. How many parcels?

Mr. WARD. 221, I believe.

Senator BUMPERS. What is the approximate size?

Mr. WARD. 640 acres per parcel.

Senator BUMPERS. Do they have existing mineral claims on them right now?

Mr. WARD. They may well have claims, but in most cases they are not developed, and I might add our Division of Mines and Geology, which is essentially the state's counterpart to the U.S. Geological Survey, goes in and performs the scientific geological analysis of what is in the area.

Much of our work has yet to be done. We have probably only classified which is the scientific term used for determining what minerals exist about 40 percent of the area covered by S. 11, so there remains a substantial portion of the area that has yet to be mapped.

In other words, the 221 parcels I am speaking to you about today could potentially grow, and I think quite possibly will.

Senator BUMPERS. And so you do not know how many of those parcels have claims staked on them?

Mr. WARD. No.

Senator BUMPERS. You said about 200 of them belonged to the state?

Mr. WARD. There are 221 that have mineral or the state either has full title to the land or royalty interests or a 16th royalty interest. The majority of them we have full title, thereby we would receive 100 percent of any royalty interest.

Out of 221, 160 as a side note are on the strategic minerals list. In other words, I guess by definition, those are minerals that cannot be found in stable countries and outside the domain of the United States.

Senator BUMPERS. Does the State of California have a claim staking law where people can go and take claims like the Federal Government?

Mr. WARD. Not to my understanding. It is handled through an administrative process involving the State Lands Commission, and it goes out to bid.

Senator BUMPERS. Senator Cranston, I apologize. I have not called on you to ask questions. Do you have any questions of Mr. Ward?

Senator CRANSTON. No, I do not. Thank you very much.

Senator BUMPERS. Thank you.

Mr. Ward, we may submit a couple of questions to you for the record.

Now, we will go to the five-minute rule.

Our first panel is Robert Reveles, California Mining Association, Martin G. Jaynes, Izaak Walton League of America, Patrice Davison, Running Springs, California, Douglas Scott, Conservation Director of the Sierra Club, Brooks Yeager, National Audubon Society, and Dr. W. Thomas Goerold, Chief Economist for Energy and Mineral Resources of The Wilderness Society.

Senator McClure and Senator Wallop wanted to be here today for this hearing, but could not be, but they have statements. Their statements and questions of witnesses will be inserted in the record as well as my own opening statement.

According to my list, the first witness is Mr. Reveles.

Mr. Reveles, I hope you can summarize, but we are very pleased to have you.

STATEMENT OF ROBERT REVELES, CALIFORNIA MINING ASSOCIATION, ACCOMPANIED BY DR. WILLIAM P. LEEDY, GEOLOGIST

Mr. REVELES. Thank you. I will try to summarize.

My name is Robert Reveles. I am Vice President of Home State Mining Company, but I really wanted to share a perspective with the committee, Senator.

I come from a perspective as a community activist and long time Congressional staff assistant on the House side, and so I have a deep and abiding commitment to the democratic process, and that is really one of the more immediate concerns that strikes us in the money community about what we have facing us today in S. 11.

But setting that aside, we also do feel we provide a useful product for society. We provide 65 commodities out in the desert.

California is actually the number one non-fuel mineral producing state in the nation, and half of that production comes from the desert.

We also feel that we provide not only for immediate gratification of needs, but also for future gratification of needs.

There are three very significant reports that have been published in the last year. The L. A. 2000 Committee Report, the California Vision 2010 and the SCAG reports, Southern California Association of Government reports, all documenting an upcoming crisis in trying to upgrade and improve the infrastructure in the urban communities.

Now, those urban communities are going to be populated essentially by a new majority comprised of Hispanic Americans, African Americans and Asians, all who need to take on the responsibility of upgrading those infrastructures and providing affordable housing.

Those industrial and construction materials will be coming as they do come from the desert area, and so that is an area of concern to us.

There are other concerns in the legislation that I do not simply have time to dwell on, but I would like to touch on the question of access is one that will immediately foreclose any exploration if we do not provide accurate data for the committee's deliberations.

We have had a geologic team that has looked at 2 percent of the area comprised in this district, Senator, and we found some dramatic oversight by the drafters of the legislation that completely overlooked not only historical mining activity, but current ongoing mining operations and we would like to make that material available to the committee because we think it is important for you.

We want to be a positive participant in the process, but we also feel that we also are very resourceful. We produce all of this product from one-tenth of 1 percent the land area available for mining. That is fairly significant.

In addition, we think that valid existing rights language is good, yes, but in actuality, Senator, historically in practice it simply has not assured the continuance of mining.

In the Death Valley there were some significant operations that were in place, some four or five, and they were assured that they could exercise valid existing rights.

In point of fact, the conditions placed on them prevented any materials from being brought into the area, any sights for milling facilities, and no way of accessing the product.

So, all in all, we are pleased that there is some gesture being made to accommodate mining, but in point of fact history has shown us that it simply has not worked out that way.

I would like to also, Senator, with your permission, enter the full statement in the record and make available to the staff for any questions Dr. Leedy who is here in the audience and has some dramatic illustrations, and I would like to turn over, with your permission, the rest of my two or three minutes to him for that purpose. [The prepared statement of Mr. Reveles follows:]