other areas because we have particular areas via the plan that are set aside for off-road vehicles.

Senator BUMPERS. Within the C and L classification some of it is subject to off-road vehicle use and some of it is not? Is that what you are saying?

Mr. HASTEY. That is correct. The Class C is an interim classification until a wilderness decision is finally made by Congress.

In other words, the areas that we have recommended for wilderness are the Class C areas. So, between the time that classification was made in 1980 until Congress acts, there are some of those Class C areas that allow vehicle use based on traditional use in those areas, and they are not impairing the wilderness values.

The Class L areas, what we call the limited use, do have roads. These are designated roads and trails that the off-road vehicle people can use but cannot leave. They have to stay on these designated roads and trails, and they are designated by way of maps and on the ground.

Senator BUMPERS. Then-as a matter of fact, none of the entire 12 million acres is managed as wilderness, even those acres in wilderness study areas and those recommended for wilderness.

Mr. HASTEY. The 2.1 million acres is Class C. If Congress approved our recommendation, that would be managed under the Wilderness proposal.

The other six million acres would not be managed under wilderness restrictions. It would allow mining to continue, but under very careful mitigation before that mining can occur.

Senator BUMPERS. I must say it does not seem like it is a very protective management plan when you consider that of the eight million in the C and L categories that only two million designated really is going to be restricted the way we restrict other wilderness lands. We are talking about a 25 million acre area where there are only two million acres.

Mr. HASTEY. When you say 25 million acres, half of that is managed by BLM of which we are recommending two million acres for wilderness.

You have to understand in that area are also two million acres in the Death Valley National Monument that is proposed for wilderness, another 600,000 acres in the Joshua Tree Monument that is wilderness, and 400,000 acres in the Anza Borrego desert. So, with our proposal plus the other proposed wilderness areas plus the existing wilderness areas, you are talking about five million acres wilderness designation.

Senator BUMPERS. But right now are you not allowing new mining claims to be staked in those areas?

Mr. HASTEY. In the two million acres?

Senator BUMPERS. Yes.

Mr. HASTEY. Congress was very clear in their direction to us when they said we could not withdraw these lands for wilderness purposes. Only Congress can. So, we could not withdraw these from the mining law.

What we can prevent, though, is any kind of impairing mining that goes on in those wilderness areas, which essentially restricts mining. But they could file for mining claims in these areas until Congress acts.

Senator BUMPERS. I think that gives this whole proposition some sense of urgency. S. 11 recognizes existing mining claims, and my guess is there are probably a lot of mining claims being filed right now in anticipation of this land being withdrawn.

Mr. HASTEY. That is not true. No, there are not. There are about 30,000 mining claims in the desert and under Senator Cranston's bill, but we do not see a mass increase of mining claims being filed. Senator BUMPERS. But if the plan is not going to be approved until 1991

Mr. JAMISON. Mr. Chairman, we are right down to the end of that now. It has made it through all of the hoops and is in the Department.

We are doing one legal analysis on the taking provision. In my opinion, our proposal has to be given a very hard look by our friends in the Defense Department, and after that we will have Administration approval.

Senator BUMPERS. What are the principal minerals being mined in the desert now?

Mr. JAMISON. The ones I saw myself were talc and others. I do not know about the hard rocks, but I know from looking at the area, looking at the USGS maps and the Bureau of Mines maps, that it is a world class mineral area.

I personally think, if we are going to stay in the competitive and in the strategic mineral area and in the rare earth area, that is about our only area for rare earths in the United States.

The other options, from what I am told, are China and the Soviet Union for rare earths. So that is why

Senator BUMPERS. What about some of those rare minerals?

Mr. JAMISON. There is a whole list on the periodic table. I can pull it out of my briefing book if you want me to.

Senator BUMPERS. I would like for you to.

Mr. HASTEY. There are 65 mineral commodities that are found in the desert. When we refer to rare earths, there are about ten rare earths.

Senator BUMPERS. I have never heard that term before. What does it mean?

Mr. HASTEY. They are not essentially rare, but they are similar to gold and silver. They are located-if you will remember the old element chart, they are way down the line on the element chart. But, they are elements yttrium, lanthanum, cerium, samarium, a whole series there that are used for catalytic converters. They are used for cracking of oil. They are used for superconductivity, and 95 percent of our rare earths are mined in the California Desert. Senator BUMPERS. What percentage?

Mr. HASTEY. 95 percent.

Senator BUMPERS. And there are some 60 of them?

Mr. HASTEY. When we are talking about the rare earths, there are only about ten of those, but the total number of mineral commodities that are found in the desert is about 65, and that ranges from

Senator BUMPERS. That includes gold and silver?
Mr. HASTEY. Yes.

Senator BUMPERS. What percentage of the gold mined in this country is mined in the area covered by S. 11, do you have any idea?

Mr. HASTEY. Well, there are not areas that are being mined that are covered by S. 11 now, but the production of gold in the California Desert now is about 450,000 ounces.

I could not tell you what percent, but we rank about second in the country in gold production behind Nevada.

Senator BUMPERS. Mr. Hastey, you are head of the state office of BLM in California, is that correct?

Mr. HASTEY. Yes, sir.

Senator BUMPERS. You heard some allusion and reference here to the fact that 70 to 75 percent of the people in a poll in the late 1988 favor preserving this desert with at least some if not all of the characteristics described in S. 11.

Do you have any objection with those allegations?

Mr. HASTEY. I think you will find that kind of percent, particularly in the L.A. Basin and San Francisco. People do not understand what a wilderness designation does.

I find that most of our publics in California think a wilderness area is that place they drove to last weekend to camp. That is their idea of a wilderness. They do not really understand the restrictions that are placed on wilderness in terms of access and in terms of any future mining.

Senator BUMPERS. What do you think they have in mind when they say they favor preserving it?

Mr. HASTEY. In preserving the way they would like to use it.

In other words, the way they would like to use it-to be able to go out there and camp and not be disturbed by——

Senator BUMPERS. Is there anything in the bill that would keep them from camping?

Mr. HASTEY. They would not have the access into those areas by road.

Senator BUMPERS. Staff tells me there are 30,000 miles of roads in there.

Mr. HASTEY. There is about 17,000 miles of dirt road, but Senator Cranston's bill eliminates about 2,500 miles of what we consider quality access ways and routes that the public uses to get back out of this back country.

Much of the mileage that they refer to is located more in the west Mojave and some of the urban areas, but the urban areas that essentially are locked up by S. 11 are some of the more scenic areas that people can drive into.

Senator BUMPERS. Mr. Hastey, I would assume that if everything is just going swimmingly there, this bill would never have been introduced, and the poll would never have been taken.

I assume that there is at least some concern by people about what is happening to this area, not only to the wildlife habitat, not just for the tortoise.

I have been around that desert some, and I do not necessarily resent those tracks of off road vehicles, but I do think it would be good if we limited the areas in which that could be done. I frankly think that those RV's are one of the reasons the people of Califor

nia are getting increasingly agitated about what they see as a sort of a willy-nilly destruction of a pristine, fragile area.

Mr. HASTEY. I do not see that happening, sir. If you fly over the desert, better than 95 percent of the desert is untracked and untouched.

We have our roads designated, we have maps out that show designated roads and trails.

Senator BUMPERS. Why not leave it that way?

Mr. HASTEY. And that is what our plan calls for. Our plan calls for that.

It does not allow unrestricted off road vehicle use. That vehicle use is planned, it is designated on the ground, and it is designated by maps.

And we are always going to have one or a few people who are going to violate that just like we have that happening in national parks and Forest Service lands and counties and cities.

Senator BUMPERS. So, what you are saying is just nothing much needs to be done?

Mr. HASTEY. Well, I think the one thing that was articulated pretty well was that we could always use more manpower and

more money.

But even with designation of the wilderness or designation of parks, that requires additional funds and manpower to manage those.

Senator BUMPERS. I admit we are broke. You are not likely to get any money.

Mr. HASTEY. That is correct, and I think we do a lot with the little we have. We work with the Fish and Game. They make major contributions in wildlife management. The Nature Conservancy has made millions of dollars of investment on public lands both in stewardship and acquisition.

If we were doing such a lousy job in wildlife management, I do not think the Nature Conservancy would make the kind of investment in money and manpower that they have.

The Trust For Public Lands, the same way, major investments in acquisitions.

Senator BUMPERS. Mr. Hastey, the Nature Conservancy only invests to protect something hoping the government will later take them out so that the area is protected. They just bought 30,000 acres out in Oklahoma in what we call the Tall Grass Prairie, and it is threatened, and that is the reason they bought it.

And they expect the United States government to eventually take them out of that investment and make that a national monument.

And I must say that ranks higher on my priority list than the California desert does.

But my point is, the Nature Conservancy, I think, is one of the greatest organizations in the world because they move in and do responsible things when government refuses to.

Mr. HASTEY. Or when government cannot afford to.

They also maintain, they also retain some of the lands, and they also provide stewardship. They actually provide a presence to assist us in managing places like Big Marengo.

They have a presence there, so they have made a contribution in the stewardship along with the acquisition.

Senator BUMPERS. BLM is supposed to be a good steward, too, isn't it?

Mr. HASTEY. We like to approach it on a cooperative basis. We have something like 200,000 hours of volunteer help in California, and we are very proud of that.

I think it is very important that we get people involved in managing these resources and not just BLM.

Senator BUMPERS. Cy, Mr. Hastey, thank you very much for being with us. We may put some additional questions to you for the record. Thank you for being here.

We are going to have to start with the five-minute rule here very shortly. I am as guilty of taking time as the witnesses are, so we are all going to have to restrain ourselves.

Our next witness is Robert A. Stone, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Defense Installations.

Can you summarize your statement?

Mr. STONE. I sure can, Mr. Chairman.

STATEMENT OF ROBERT A. STONE, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE (INSTALLATIONS), DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE

Mr. STONE. Sitting next to me, Mr. Chairman, is Mr. Charles E. Adolph, the Acting Director of Operational Test Evaluation of the Defense Department, and I am also accompanied by, from your right, Brigadier General Tom Adams, Director of Facility and Services, U.S. Marine Corps, Rear Admiral Steve Briggs, Commander of Navy Flight Attack Wings, Pacific, Brigadier General Marvin Ervin, U.S. Air Force Deputy Director of Operations, and Brigadier General Larry Lehowicz, U.S. Army, Director of Training.

The Defense Department is very interested in this legislation. We have a big interest in the Southern California desert, both present and future.

We have five major bases and ranges in that area. They are among the largest and most important in the nation.

This is where we conduct most of our large-scale unit training exercises, and where we test our major weapons.

We are not only the custodians of the land. We are custodians of over three million young men and women who defend America.

We use the desert to train our soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen to survive in combat.

We have steadily moved away from more populated areas into less populated areas.

We cannot leave the Southern California desert because there is nowhere else to go.

Realistic training and testing requires large areas of land and airspace for combined ground and air forces to fight against each other acting like an enemy would and to test weapons on which our future security depends.

We are good custodians of the environment. The bill itself recognizes our stewardship. It says in S. 11, "military activities have not impaired the natural and cultural values of the area."