Mr. GATHINGS. That is a very distressing situation.

Mr. GWINN. If we are relieved of the burden and responsibility, I wonder if we do not shift them as soon as we can.

Mr. GATHINGS. I think education is a State and local matter. That is my attitude and observation with respect to education. I think that the people ought to provide the needs at the local level as well as the States. They ought to join hands with the State in obtaining certain funds from the State to carry on. It is a matter we cannot do.

Mr. GWINN. You are not advocating a Federal-aid program as such. Mr. GATHINGS. No, sir; I am not. I think we ought to make the funds available to start an overall, 48-State program to make higher education available to worthy youngsters, both men and women.

Mr. GWINN. Do you favor the program advocated by many bills before this committee to give credit against income taxes for tuition and other school payments made by parents?

Mr. GATHINGS. I think that legislation was pending. I have not given it too much thought, Mr. Gwinn, but I believe maybe some credit for that may be desirable.

Mr. GWINN. It is before Ways and Means. We have no such bills here. It is under quite active consideration in the Ways and Means Committee, I believe.

Mr. GATHINGS. I think that legislation may have merit. I do not have too much to say about it because I do not know too much about that particular legislation.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I happen to know that one member of this committee introduced a bill to that effect, but I have not heard anything coming out of the Ways and Means Committee yet.

Mr. GWINN. No; nothing has come out.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I do not know if they will take favorable action. I am referring to myself, incidentally.

Mr. ELLIOTT. May I ask the gentleman, are the ideas which the gentleman is expressing contained in his bill, H. R. 10908, about the loan situation?

Mr. GATHINGS. Yes; that is right. It is incorporated in that legislation. I am here not so much in behalf of every line in any particular bill. I should like to impress, if I may, upon the committee the importance of making this program available to deserving young men and young women, and then let them pay that money back after they get out. Good jobs will be available to them at the end of their college course. Those jobs await these young people.

Mr. ELLIOTT. I should like to say to the gentleman that the evidence we have right on this point is to the effect that the rate of repayment of loans made to worthy students has been very high. It has been as good as the banks. When they get their education under a loan program, in nearly every instance they pay it back on a good schedule.

I agree with the gentleman that a loan program must be an integral part of any system which we adopt to stimulate and encourage the education of these boys and girls who cannot get an education otherwise.

Mr. GATHINGS. I am proud to hear that the testimony before the committee reflects that this money has been paid back.

In my home county of Crittenden, in Arkansas, in a little town of about 300 population, there is the Wapanaca Club there, of which

many wealthy people are members, and they come over and spend weekends during the hunting season and the like. That is just right outside of the little town of Turrell, Ark.

A wealthy man came there a few years ago and said, "Here in Turrell the people do not have a church. I am just going to build them a church," and he did. He built a really nice church.

I will have you know, Mr. Chairman, that the people did not appreciate it. The cobwebs took the church.

You will find the same situation if you hand a free education to these students, to my way of thinking. As long as they earn it themselves, they can appreciate it, and they will do a lot better job, too, when they get out.

Mr. GWINN. That is good doctrine.

Mr. GATHINGS. I should like to ask permission, Mr. Chairman, that the statement of Judge A. F. Barham be incorporated in the record when it is received. I wired him yesterday. He had written me earlier that it was on the way. He thought it was here and available. I should like to have it incorporated when it is received. I wired him yesterday and asked that he send it, because I did not have it.

Mr. ELLIOTT. Without objection, the statement of Judge Barham, to which the gentleman from Arkansas has referred, will be made a part of the record when it is received.

Mr. GATHINGS. He would like to have been here. He wrote me that he regretted very much he was not able to be here today. He was to have been here to testify with regard to this legislation.

I should like to ask consent to incorporate in the record a letter from H. E. Williams, president of the Southern Baptist College of Walnut Ridge, Ark.

Mr. ELLIOTT. Without objection, the letter to which the gentleman refers will be made a part of the record following the gentleman's testimony.

Mr. GATHINGS. It is a pleasure indeed to have been given the privilege of coming before you today, Mr. Chairman. I know the House is in session and you want to adjourn shortly.

Mr. ELLIOTT. It is a privilege to have the gentleman, and we very much appreciate the testimony which he has given us out of his experience and observation. Thank you.

Mr. GATHINGS. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.

(The documents submitted by Mr. Gathings follow :)

Arkansas Rotary Clubs who have passed resolutions endorsing the student-loan

Whereas it is said that there exists a great shortage of scientists, engineers, and other persons of adequate technical knowledge to aid our country in the

development of weapons and machines necessary to our defense in time of war and to contrive means for the peacetime use of nuclear power; and

Whereas His Excellency, the President of the United States, wishing to end this shortage, has announced his intention to seek passage by the Congress of the United States of legislation providing financial aid to students who will study to qualify themselves as scientists, engineers, and other technical experts; and Whereas there exists throughout our country a general need for more and better educated men and women in all walks of life and there are many underprivileged but ambitious young men and women who, but for the lack of funds would now be in college pursuing useful studies to qualify them to meet our Nation's need for a better educated citizenry; and

Whereas our national debt, the greatest in history, already comprises such a troublesome burden upon our economy, as well as upon taxpayers, that necessary as Mr. Eisenhower's proposed program appears to be, it is the sense of this meeting that:

(1) No student of the character and intelligence requisite to the success of any useful educational program will want or expect to receive such an education as is contemplated at the expense of his country or its taxpayers.

(2) That unearned offers of gifts, scholarships, and grants looking to a free education at the expense of others will have no appeal to any self-respecting young man or woman of the character and stature so needed to supply our country's demand for more scientifically trained and educated workers.

(3) That our Government should aid those loyal Americans who wish by proper study to qualify themselves for service in the field of nuclear power or in any other scientific or technical field by loans and not scholarships or gifts. That such loans should also be extended to all persons seeking a general education or education along professional and business lines.

(4) That such loans should be at a low rate of interest, upon long terms, but the payment thereof should be well secured: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved, (A) That the secretary of this club be and he is instructed to furnish copies of this resolution, without delay, to each Senator and Congressman from the State of Arkansas.

(B) That the Senators and Congressmen be and they are hereby requested to support the enactment by the Congress of the United States of the necessary legislation to

(1) set up a general program providing for loans of money by the proper lending agencies of our country to loyal Americans who wish to engage in scientific, engineering, or any other technical studies required to supply the need of country in such matters;

(2) That such legislation should also provide for similar aid by way of loans to students who wish to pursue studies looking to a general education as well as to qualify them for the practice of any useful profession;

(3) That such legislation provide for such loans to be well secured, to bear a low rate of interest and to be upon such long terms of payment as not to render them burdensome to borrowers;

(4) That, to avoid the excessive cost of administration of such a program, the proper lending agency or agencies of our Government be required to make such loans through any accredited college or university of our country and through any lawfully created corporation whose aim and purpose is to provide aid to students seeking education in any of the accredited colleges or universities of the United States of America. The foregoing resolution was duly passed at a regular meeting of the Holly Grove Rotary Club on the 20th day of January 1958, with a majority of its membership present and voting on its passage.

Attest:

H. L. THOMPSON, President.

Donald R. Dearing, Secretary; Alf Brown, Sr., L. G. Renfro, Jr.,
Leslie N. Speck, Ellis King, Ralph Abramson, C. R. Gordon, P. E.
Williamson, Jr., Ernest McLemallain, Donald Dearing, M. C.
Archer, E. C. Clifton, Sammy Feldman, L. B. Dearing, J. F.
Mautious, P. E. Johnson, A. B. Walls, Geo. L. McGhehey.

Congressman E. C. GATHINGS,

United States Congressman,

Washington, D. C.

SOUTHERN BAPTIST COLLEGE, Walnut Ridge, Ark., January 15, 1958.

DEAR CONGRESSMAN GATHINGS: It is my understanding that you are preparing a bill as a subsitute for the President's scholarship proposition which I would like to know more concerning. As you know we have a large number of students annually and I believe we have experience related to the matter which is worthwhile.

I do not believe that the outright gift proposition to be in the best interest in our American way of life and the students concerned. I do know that there are thousands of fine young people in America who do need help to attend college and would like to have this help on a respectable basis so that they could pay it back when they do start earning. For that reason I believe a loan system similar to that of the GI housing would be in the best interest of the entire American life. It seems to me that if the student could go to the bank and get the money over a reasonable time and that the Government would act as a security for the bank that it would preserve self-respect and at the same time answer the needs of the individual. As to where he wants to go to school should be left to the student. Loans should be made without too much redtape and upon the assurance that the individual has the possibility of securing a college education and therefore will be able to repay the loan upon completion. Thank you very kindly for all you have done for the advancement for the finer attributes of American life.

Sincerely yours,

H. E. WILLIAMS, President.

(Supplemental material furnished by the witness follows:)

Hon. E. C. GATHINGS,

House Office Building,

Washington, D. C.

OSCEOLA, ARK., April 1, 1958.

DEAR MR. GATHINGS: You and Mr. Elliott have invited me to come to Washington to appear before the Committee on Education on April 3 and testify concerning our experience with Student Aid Foundation, Inc., in the matter of lending money to students seeking a higher education.

To me the matter of a law for the making of loans by our Government to the many underprivileged but very deserving young men and women of America, now being denied the necessary financial support to attend college, seems of such vital importance that I would deem it a great privilege to appear before the committee. However, my own business and my health, which is not good, may render it impossible for me to do that.

In that event, I would be pleased if you place this letter, a copy of our 1957 Progress Report, and a copy of The Ten Best Letters of our 1957 letterwriting contest in the record in lieu of my testimony. I am sure you have copies of these booklets and our secretary has recently mailed copies to all the members of both the House and Senate committees.

We have received some very nice letters from both Congressmen and Senators. Many of these letters have encouraged us to believe that some of these gentlemen are in sympathy with the loan as opposed to the free scholarship idea. Since our progress report gives the history and origin of Student Aid Foundation, Inc., and it, with the booklet, The Ten Best Letters, deals in much detail with our activities and accomplishments, what is said here is merely supplementary to them.

I would be greatly surprised if any informed person should seriously question that our country is sadly in need of more and better educated citizens in every other field, as well as in science and engineering.

What then can be done about the situation? Is the matter of educating our youth a proper function of Government?

Undoubtedly the answer is in the affirmative.

So necessary does it appear that we educate more scientists and engineers that it is now proposed that we spend billions in free, unearned scholarships to educate student in these two fields alone. Assuming for the moment, that, even if no military threat were involved, America will need many well trained in science and engineering to make proper peacetime use of nuclear energy which

appears destined to supplant and render obsolete all forms of power now in

use.

But should these scientists and engineers, or for that matter any others, be educated at the expense of the already overburdened American taxpayer? Estimates of the value of an ordinary and nonscientific college education range from $100,000 up. Should any man have such a great benefit at the expense of his fellow citizens, present and future?

Have patriotism, sense of duty, and desire for self-improvement reached such a level among our young Americans that it is necessary to bait them with an offer of free education to induce a sufficient number of them to take up these studies in order to supply our need?

Every bit of our 9 years experience with Student Aid Foundation, Inc., lending money to students to pay their college expenses calls for a negative answer to that question.

With a capital of approximately $35,000 we have enabled 139 students to attend college. We are financing exactly 30 this year.

How can so much have been done with so little?

The answer to that question is that our cost of operation is very low. No official of our organization receives any compensation for his services. Only necessary secretarial work, bookkeeping, postage, and printing are paid for from our fund.

Then, too, it is rarely ever required that we loan any student the full cost of attending college any year. Most of them receive some help from friends or relatives, or else earn enough during vacation to help pay the expense. Some begin preparing to meet this expense even while in high school by working during spare time and saving.

This year we have two young medical students who only needed enough to pay the expense of their last semester. We already have that money set aside for them.

Time alone will tell, but we believe that among the 139 youngsters to whom we have loaned money are some Edisons, Lincolns, Websters-some very capable young men and women, soon to be among our most substantial citizens. They began early to learn the lessons of life. Their experience overcoming the obstacles between them and a better education is fitting them for life's battles, however rugged they may be. We shall not expect to ever find any of them around relief offices or at the distribution of surplus commodities. We are proud of these upstanding young Americans. We expect them to be mainstays in supporting our Government against its every enemy.

With a proper lending plan, we believe that whatever is provided for loans to students should be and will be repaid into the United States Treasury.

If it is fair to taxpayers to burden them with the cost of free but unearned scholarships, then it is equally fair to have them provide medical and dental treatment, clothing and the like, not only for the student, but also for the members of his family.

There seems to be something about a gift of sustenance or any other thing of value that detracts from the self-respect of the one to whom it is given. On the other hand the really worthwhile young man or woman is proud to be able to say he has earned his keep, even by the most menial kind of labor. In the olden days when hoboes "rode the rods," most of them obtained their food by begging for it at kitchen doors. Some offered to chop wood and do other chores to pay for the handout. Others, having an aversion to such labor, refused. One particularly disreputable-looking knight of the road upon being asked why he always offered to pay for his food by working for it, replied, "I know that my dirty, ragged appearance often arouses pity and sympathy, but even at that, nobody owes me even a mouthful of food, unless I earn it. Low as I have fallen, I must still retain my self-respect by earning what I eat."

Whatever misfortune had caused his condition, this man still prized his self-esteem and tried in some measure to maintain it.

In our dealings with our boys and girls seeking a higher education, we should begin, long before they enter college, to build into them at least as much as that principle to which that hobo was still clinging. Teach them to turn away from gifts which lead to mendicancy. Teach them to always pay for what they get. Help them to acquire the habit of self-reliance and the proper sense of responsibility. Teach them to pay for what they get and build into them that kind of character which marks a good citizen everywhere. In some of the bills introduced on this subject, I notice a tendency to limit the amount of the proposed loan-in one instance the maximum was fixed at $1,500.