numerous streams, with rushing water on one side and a railroad or highway on the other. Practically none of them have safe and adequate playground space. Some of these buildings are more than 50 years old.

The only teachers' desks even in our better schools are battered ones picked up from the Army surplus. Nearly all our 19,541 children are occupying seats no longer considered suitable for school use. We have sent our maintenance trucks to bring in these seats by the hundreds and thousands after they have been discarded by more prosperous districts.

On January 27, 1955, I appeared here before the Senate Committee on Education and gave a complete listing of our minimum building needs. I explained to the committee that we have our own engineer and working crews and that we invariably get far more for each dollar than does the typical school district. Even so, our total figure at that time was $9,365,620. Since that date we have spent some $800,000 on three new buildings. Prices of materials and labor have advanced so rapidly that in terms of dollar needs we have made no headway at all. Remember, too, that we figured these buildings as what the automobile people would call stripped models. We included nothing to pay for pupil lockers, sound systems, and the like. We included no athletic equipment, no laboratory equipment. We included not even seats for the pupils or desks for the teachers.

As we look at our situation today and include some of the things which most districts take for granted, our need at this moment is $15 million in our building fund. That amount is hopelessly beyond our reach, and our State authorities cannot solve our problem, either. Our State superintendent figures that Kentucky's total school building needs at present call for $350 million. By raising our property assessments and our tax rates to the highest permissible levels, we can expect to meet $190 million of that cost from State funds. The remaining $160 million is completely beyond Kentucky's reach and will never be spent unless the Federal Government steps into the picture.

Our third major problem is that of transportation, and like the others it grows worse year by year instead of better. This year we are operating 56 buses and hauling 12,000 pupils daily. This means that the average bus serves 214 children instead of the 80 recommended by our State officials. No bus has a rated capacity of more than 66 passengers; yet many loads consist of over 100 children and some go as high as 140. These heavy loads remain in spite of the fact that drivers are making 3 and 4 long trips both morning and evening.

Our school day, including the lunch period, is 7 hours, but our transportation system keeps many pupils away from home 10 or 11 hours. Since many children walk considerable distances to reach our buses, there are some individuals who actually spend more than half of each 24 hours away from home in order to obtain an education.

We are only 30 miles from Prestonsburg and are feeling just now some of the terrible anxiety generated among parents as a result of the Nation's worst school bus tragedy. We have been extremely fortunate thus far, operating under dangerous conditions without a fatal accident in more than 20 years.

We need to double our fleet of buses at once, but the funds are not available. Moreover, we are using each bus about 10 years instead of

the 5 years recommended by safety experts. Last year our transportation program cost $223,000; this year it will cost $237,000. What we actually need in order to give reasonable and safe service to our present pupils is half a million dollars a year.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. Chairman, could I interrupt the witness very briefly?

Mr. ELLIOTT. The gentleman from New Jersey.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. In view of this description of the appalling conditions in your area, Mr. Farley, I am wondering whether you think that any Federal program would be adaquate to help you meet your needs. As you realize, there will be keen competition, no matter what kind of program we develop. If your needs are so great and in so many areas, how will the Federal Government be able to solve all these things?

Is it not essential that more be done at the local or State level if you are to get a solution to these problems?

Mr. FARLEY. Congressman, the type of bill which has been written in the past was to take care of the needs and not to give equal recognition throughout the Nation. The money the Federal Government appropriates, I think, should go to the areas which have the least taxable assets and have the biggest families per adult and where the need is the greatest.

The children in Pike County are going to be representing people here in Washington and people in California and everywhere else. They are citizens.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. It probably would not help you in your transportation problem, as an example, however.

Mr. FARLEY. Why shouldn't it?

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. No matter how big the Federal program, if a $10 million program were available, if we had to go in for solving the transportation problem of every school in the country we would have an enormous job on our hands.

Mr. FARLEY. Congressman, the Government has a right to take a fifth of my income. The Government has a right to come into my home and say, "You have an 18-year-old boy. Our country is at war and we need him." There is no answer for me. They take him.

By the same token that Government owes that boy an education. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. But the wealth of the country comes from the people of the country. It does not come from Washington.

Mr. FARLEY. That is true, but the people in Pike County and in Kentucky are helping to make the wealth in Detroit, New York, California, and everywhere else.

Mr. FRELINGITYSEN. I do not mean to interrupt for any lengthy discussion.

Mr. FARLEY. That money cannot come from Pike County or the State of Kentucky. Unless the Federal Government comes to our assistance, we must go on from day to day tempting fate and praying that nothing will happen to put us on the front pages of the Nation's

newspapers.

Yes, our educational needs are urgent. Neither our county nor our State can meet them. Our Federal Government is morally obliged to act and act now. Temporary and piecemeal help is better than none, but our Government should face courageously the larger challenge

of helping America's children on a general and permanent basis. No lesser action can save our schools.

Again I thank you for your courtesy in hearing me today.
Mr. ELLIOTT. Thank you very much, Mr. Claude Farley.
The gentleman from Kentucky, Mr. Perkins.

Mr. PERKINS. Mr. Farley, when the committee gets to writing legislation, I hope we shall consider some of the needs pointed up by you so thoroughly this morning. There is just no way that we can run away from the true facts of life in the field of education which you have so eloquently discussed.

Mr. Chairman, in view of the House going into session at 10 o'clock I shall not take further time of the committee.

Mr. ELLIOTT. The gentleman from Massachusetts, Mr. Nicholson.
Mr. NICHOLSON. No questions.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. No further questions.

Mr. ELLIOTT. Thank you very much, Mr. Farley. We are very happy to have had you and we appreciate your very piercing testimony on America's school needs.

Mr. FARLEY. It is kind of you to entertain me.

Mr. ELLIOTT. Our next witness this morning is the gentleman from Arkansas, Mr. E. C. Gathings, a Member of Congress from that State, whose interest in the problems of education and the general weal of the country is well known by all who know him.

There is pending before the committee at this time H. R. 10908 by the gentleman from Arkansas, Mr. Gathings, which has for its purpose to establish a program of financial aid to students in higher education, with special emphasis upon a student loan program. I am sure that that Mr. Gathings is aware of the fact that we have been studying the need for a loan program in recent days in this committee.

May I say, Mr. Gathings, we are very happy that you took the time to come and give us the benefit of your deep wisdom in this and all fields pertaining to Government.

STATEMENT OF HON. E. C. GATHINGS, MEMBER OF CONGRESS FROM THE FIRST DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS

Mr. GATHINGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am appreciative indeed of the opportunity of appearing here this morning before this subcommittee.

Mr. ELLIOTT. The gentleman from Kentucky wishes to interject. Mr. PERKINS. Before the gentleman from Arkansas, Mr. Gathings, begins, in view of the fact that I must leave at this time, I certainly should like to compliment the gentlemen from Arkansas, who, ever since I have been a member of this committee, the past 10 years, has always supported all phases of Federal aid to education insofar as need is concerned to the needy States.

I am well aware of the legislation which you have introduced, H. R. 10908, to establish a program of financial aid to students in higher education. With the White House pointing up, as a result of a White House study, that more than 100,000 high school youngsters a year are unable to attend school beyond high school due to financial difficulties, I certainly feel that you have made a contribution in your support of education in this field.

Mr. GATHINGS. I should like to say to the gentleman from Kentucky that I have supported the schoolchildren of America, it is true; but particularly now, in those impacted districts of the Nation, is that true.

Mr. ELLIOTT. Let me say to the gentleman we have completed a new impacted districts bill, and I guess it is before the Rules Committee, is it not, Mr. Frelinghuysen?

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I believe it is. That is my understanding, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. GATHINGS. I am delighted to hear that, because that program is badly needed.

I am aware of the fact that this committee has been in session for a number of weeks. You have gone into this problem with great thoroughness. That is appreciated by the Members of the House.

I do not believe there has been a subcommittee which has given such attention to this great, soul-searching problem as this subcommittee on this problem headed by the gentleman from Alabama, Mr. Elliott. You have given painstaking consideration to this great problem.

You know, there is a feeling among some Members of the House that the Committee on Appropriations occupies a place of great importance, and it does, in the history of legislation. But when you come to think about it, a committee of this kind makes the policy. Before the Appropriations Committee can provide the funds, those policies must be established first by legislative committees such as this one.

The problem with which you are confronted, to provide the necessary scientists and physicists and engineers to meet this new world of missiles, is one of great magnitude because of the fact that the survival of America may depend upon the action taken in this committee on the legislation which is before you at this time.

Judge A. F. Barham, of Osceola, Ark., who is a member of the Luxora Rotary Club, started a student loan program in Arkansas which has had a most successful approach to the problem of offering higher education to deserving students who would not otherwise have been given that privilege. I understand that program has educated and is educating 114 students, including those who are now in the schools of the various States of the South where most of these students attend school, and many, many have found their places out in the walks of life and have done a great job. They have made that money back. I ran into a lawyer not long go when I was visiting my district who came to me and said, "I want to tell you that that program of student loans which was started here at the Luxora Rotary Club has meant so much to me," because of the fact that he was given a 4-year course in college. He is now engaged in paying that money back. He is a real citizen. He has done a splendid job.

Mr. ELLIOTT. May I ask the gentleman from Arkansas, has the program spread out from Luxora to other parts of the State?

Mr. GATHINGS. Yes. I should like to say in answer to the chairman that the program has moved over to the Osceola Rotary Club and the Joiner Rotary Club. These clubs have likewise adopted the plan. It started with a very small fund. That fund has grown and is available. They select good young men and young women who have promise of future usefulness. It has worked splendidly.

I have here a resolution which was sent to me in support of legislation of this kind which I would like permission to incorporate in the record.

Mr. ELLIOTT. Without objection, the resolution will be incorporated in the record following the testimony of the gentleman from Arkansas. Mr. GATHINGS. Thank you. It is from seven Rotary Clubs in the State of Arkansas in support of a loan program to meet the needs of this particular emergency and providing the necessary scientists and other needs of the Nation.

I should like to call your attention, Mr. Chairman, to the fact that we can spend too much money at the level of the Federal Government. I have never seen anything like the proposals which are now before this Congress calling for the expenditure of vast sums of money which we have to go out and borrow. We have to borrow that money in order to make it available. Offhand, let us look at the expanded needs of the military in the missile field. There is a change in military tactics in recent years. In addition to that, let us look also at the expanded road program. That legislation is before the House today. Then there is a vast building program of public works which has been started.

In addition to that, many other programs call for the expenditure of great sums of money.

Here is a program which would not cost anything. It would cost some money to start with, yes, to put into a revolving fund some capital with which to work and take it back to the local communities in the various States and let them have a hand in the selection of the students. They know the students. They know who are good in science, mathematics, and physics; they know the students who have excelled in those subjects.

Mr. ELLIOTT. The gentleman from Massachusetts desires to ask you a question.

Mr. NICHOLSON. If we appropriate a substantial fund from which to borrow, do you think it will stop the outside people, of whom there are very many, from contributing to these scholarships? Do you think it would slow down their contribution and they would say, “Let Uncle Sam do it"?

Mr. GATHINGS. That is a very good question. I think maybe Uncle Sam could supplement that and provide additional scientists and additional specialists who would be needed. I do not believe we should discourage the continuation of programs similar to the one which emanated at Luxora Rotary Club in Arkansas.

Mr. NICHOLSON. I did not want to interrupt you, but I wanted to see what your reaction to that proposition would be. I have a great deal of admiration for you, as you well know.

Mr. GATHINGS. I appreciate the gentleman's statement. The gentleman is touching at the very heart of this problem. I do not think we should do anything at the Federal Government level which would discourage those people from continuing their activities.

Mr. ELLIOTT. The gentleman from New York.

Mr. GWINN. Has not our experience been pretty much to the contrary? I notice in Tennessee they did not have any State aid until comparatively recently. Today they say approximately 90 percent of the funds for education come from the State treasury, and the local communities are just lying down on the job.