Mr. ELLIOTT. There is one observation with respect to that matter that I would like to make at this time. In areas of the country where there are not any large businesses, or at least very few, and where you have some colleges, the college people tell me that their contributions from business are very, very small. It seems there is a tendency, which I guess is actually a human tendency, for contributions to be made near the city of the legal situs of the corporation rather than out in the field. I think a business that has a plant, we will say, at X town, is more likely to contribute to a college in X town than it is to people who buy the products in some other State, or two States removed.

If we are to get anything like an even distribution of corporate gifts for this very beneficial purpose to our higher educational institutions we are going to have to do, I think, a considerable amount of additional education among ourselves as to what is the best manner of handling it.

Mr. HANNA. I think perhaps there would be a couple of statements I could make as a result of our own studies in response to what you have said. We did find a very definite interest on the part of many companies that their most immediate obligation, the thing they wanted to do was to assist in their own community or near their community, broadened to some extent to an area because a college in X town does serve A, B, C, Y, and Z, in the immediate surrounding territory.

There was a definite trend there among certain companies to do just exactly that. That wasn't the total score, though, because some companies make a particular plan of analyzing what colleges and universities their employees have come from in the case where they have come from a college or university. Then they disseminate some of their contributions in that particular manner.

That is a little bit broader than what we are talking about, just one particular town.

Mr. HANNA. Illinois is 1 of 39 States, I believe, that has a State fund-raising association for the private colleges. About 450 companies of all sizes contribute to this State fund-raising association, whose offices are in Chicago, incidentally, and who were quite cooperative in our study of business assistance. This money then goes out on a formula basis that is arrived at in the State fund-raising association, related pretty generally to enrollment and 1 or 2 other factors. Some companies have been very much interested in that means of contribution because it takes away from them the need to make these decisions you mentioned, or the need to determine who needs more than the next fellow does, and some companies have spoken out very firmly that they believe that that has been a tremendous help.

On the other hand, there are other directors in foundations that like to make their own analysis and make their own determinations, so that there are a series of ways to do this business of contributing and by our efforts in terms of the report in our study, there apparently has been a very good climate provided among our own company membership, et cetera, about education, and about contribution to higher education.

I have to file somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 letters from the university and college officials of the State of Illinois directly thanking us for this particular kind of effort. I am not trying to break my arm but it is one of those things that was well received on the part

of the people around and the universities themselves were very thankful for that and bought up a very considerable quantity, in the thousands, to use as part of their selling piece as they went out and knocked on the doors of the individuals and the businesses.

Then the fourth point that we have here that is on the affirmative side, and on page 8, has to do with the thing that was mentioned earlier today, the possibility for parents, children, or other people who support children, at the university and college level, to deduct a certain amount, again, under controlled circumstances, a certain amount of tuitions and fees that are being spent to put these children through college and university.

We did not take a stand particularly with reference to certain of the bills, but we were very much aware of the education committee that one of the more common proposals, recommendations, is this business of 30 percent credit and deductions with a maximum annually of $450.

It was our feeling that this kind of program would undoubtedly make it possible for the colleges and universities to raise tuition fees to more nearly what is the true cost of education, without taking the chance of removing from the future enrollment some of those very capable pupils who came from homes that just simply did not have enough money to get the increasing costs of tuition. There was a little bit of disturbance on the part of our education committee, because they also were aware that this kind of a proposal in the long run probably helped the wealthier family more than it did the poorer family, and there was some discussion as to just how strongly we wanted to go to support it but the final decision was that the good of this idea outweighed some of the disturbances that they had recognized.

Mr. ELLIOTT. Mr. Hanna, let me say this to you: I have no opposition to that approach whatsoever. I think it might be fairly helpful. My mind goes back to the fact that there are people scattered all over this country who had the background of an Abraham Lincoln, we will say, from very poor surroundings, and my mail is reinforcing upon me my understanding of the unemployment roles in certain areas of the country, and that there can be and is want and privation. What are we going to do for those children? Some of them are bright as pins. I have seen them myself. Your program here—a lot of it at least down to now-I find myself in agreement with. It seems you leave off when you get down to where the need is really great, that you tend to leave off. You are an educator. You are a very bright young fellow. I would like to have your comment on that. I will say to you to begin with, you can't sell me the answer that every boy who is mentally prepared, and who wants to go to college, can go under existing circumstances, because my own investigations indicate that he cannot. We have a very great responsibility here, to try to find out if there is something that we should do, and if there is something that we can do in this field.

What are your recommendations? You are an educator. What are your recommendations for this poor boy or poor girl who really comes from desperately poor circumstances? The figures show that there are still a million families, I believe, or 2 million families in America who have less than a thousand dollars income per year. How will we help those people?

98049-58-pt. 3—17

We deduct taxes. We give additional exemptions to the middle class, as you recommend. What do you recommend for these brains

that are in the lower levels of the economic strata?

Mr. HANNA. When you speak in terms of a general thing, you can try to do 2 or 3 things and make 2 or 3 suggestions. Of course in the long run it comes down to an individual case. We can't talk exactly in an individual case. I think the series of scholarships is one of the answers. The scholarships are being offered by business and industry. The scholarships in Illinois that are now being offered, of course I recognize that they will not take the total cost of a child going to college. One thousand dollars or six hundred dollars just won't do the job. It will hardly do the job at our State university. But that is one part, certainly.

We have not gone into a discussion at the State level of the loan possibilities but I am convinced that that is coming for us to consider and for the State of Illinois to consider in the near future, perhaps during the next biennium.

I would hesitate even to guess what, for example, State chambers feeling would be on it. I could speak personally as to what I feel.

But I do feel that there is a very good chance that idea is going to have to be considered very carefully, and it is quite likely that there will be in the future, in many States, including perhaps Illinois, some kind of a State loan program available for pupils of the kind that you speak.

We, and I, I think, will not at this stage of the game go to the next step of being willing to accept Federal scholarships, or a Federal loan which, of course, is what you are leading up to when you talk about series of possibilities somewhere along the line, what do we do, how many opportunities are there, where do we finally have to stop? I for one stop short, and you will find in here our own recommendation that we do not at this time go into the business of Federal scholarships.

I am not sure that I can completely state my own feelings or that I could completely document the State chamber's beliefs with reference to this Federal scholarship, or the Federal loan, which we haven't even talked about, except to say that I and the State chamber have very firmly come to the belief that education basically is a State function, with powers and duties and responsibilities being delegated to the local communities and local boards of education, and except in very unusual circumstances, some of which we could point out, this business of education is not a Federal function.

I am very much aware that there are some problems in terms of national defense, that there are some particular situations, such as federally impacted districts, which lend us some credence in talking about a national idea, but I for one am extremely reluctant to accept that kind of an answer at this stage of the game. Certainly the State chamber itself has consistently opposed the Federal programs and Federal operations.

I haven't answered you because I am not sure that I know the answer. I think that we keep on making opportunities available for as many of these people as possible in all phases, including perhaps the loans, and then recognize that even the poor people, or particularly the poor people, the poor children, will want to and will be able to

augment whatever they can get by their own efforts, summers and after school.

I don't need to bore you particularly with my own experience, but my family supported me so far as college was concerned for only 1 year. The GI bill supported me for 4, and my wife, and my children, and I took care of the other 3 years myself by working evenings and summers, et cetera.

Frankly, I am very much of the opinion that anybody who is capable of doing so and has the energy to do so profits rather considerably from that kind of experience and considerably more than somebody else who rides along on having all the money available, so I think that is one part certainly of securing the money.

Mrs. GREEN. Right at that point I am inclined to agree with what you have said, with this possible exception, and I would like your comment:

That is if you take a person who is extremely capable, and that person does have to work 6 hours a day, or any number that you might happen to think of a week, is there the chance that instead of his coming out of college as an extremely well educated and extremely capable person, perhaps one of the creative scientists, or one who could make real contributions to humanity, he becomes a mediocre sort of problem?

Mr. HANNA. I think it would be very possible for something like that to happen as you have laid it down, that is, somebody who might have to work 6 hours a day during a period of time and have to go to school 6 hours a day and do that for a long period of time.

Energy would eventually disappear. Time for studies would eventually be gone. I think there is a series of circumstances like that where that could happen. I can't be taken, however, to the next stage of the thing and go beyond, the recognition that education in my firm belief is a State matter, with all of the work being done at the local level as much as possible. I don't know the answers to certain of these problems and certain of these situations, but I am awfully anxious in my own thinking that the Federal Government be kept as much as possible out of local affairs, and local problems at the education level, as is possible. I can't answer you because I know there will be situations, there is no question but what there will be situations like that arising, and it is entirely possible that with the scholarship, and the loan possibilities and some fruitful work, too, that there will be cases of just simply still not having enough money to do the job. When that happens, I guess you look for Santa Claus some place in the community, who can help to underwrite, et cetera.

I know that that has happened, too. There will be many of our businesses to provide summer and evening work, particularly for those that are doing preparation which will become fruitful to that particular business after they have a vested interest in that particular child. It is not only just scholarships. It will be actual work experience. Mrs. GREEN. Have you completed your statement?

Mr. HANNA. Well, with the exception of 1 or 2 things that I would close with, yes. Whatever you would like to do. I am watching the man behind me, too, who has a particular problem. You can see here what we have with reference to certain of our oppositions. I don't need to go into them because they are there--the grant-in-aid business,

the matching business. That is not new to you at all. I am amenable to whatever you want.

Mrs. GREEN. I find myself in agreement with many things you have said. I have found myself over the years in disagreement with the position that the chamber of commerce has taken, but from part of the testimony that I heard this morning and from this afternoon's testimony, I think that progress is being made.

Mrs. GREEN. On page 9 your state chamber reaffirms its opposition to any Federal assistance in the field of school-building construction. We have had a recent piece of legislation introduced to build post offices by the Federal Government in an antirecession measure. We have had bills and speeches on the floor of the House for a speedup on public works programs, on the Federal highway program, as an antirecession measure.

Has your Illinois State Chamber of Commerce looked at the schoolconstruction legislation in this light, and would you oppose it simply as an antirecession measure?

Mr. HANNA. We have not looked at school construction as an antirecession measure. Were we to do so, it is my opinion that the answer would still be the same: Opposition to Federal aid for school-building construction.

We appeared here exactly 1 year ago before a different committee talking about Federal aid to school-building construction, and Mr. Frelinghuysen and our witness had quite an interesting afternoon of it, and also at lunch. We would still be opposing that, I am very positive.

My answer to several of the things you might ask me along those lines is repetitive. Education in our mind, with very, very few exceptions, is a State function, with authority and responsibility being delegated to local districts.

The State chamber has taken no position with reference to the Post Office recommendations. I doubt very much that it will do so. I think we look upon some of the highway business and the post office business as more nearly a responsibility at the Federal level. We do not accept the idea of education at a Federal level, with very few exceptions, one of them being the federally impacted district situation, with which we agree if you don't carry us too far on that point.

I think that the allotment ratios have been out of line with the actual costs under the federally impacted districts, but at least we certainly have agreed with that idea.

There are 1 or 2 other things I would say, had we been discussing vocational education and education in 1917, 1918, 1919, and 1920, we would quite likely have agreed with that program. We do not agree with the continuation of it at this time. We think 40 years of stimulation of vocational education is sufficient.

So I would have to answer, I think, that if you were to interpret it and carry it a long way, we would not accept it as a good, sensible antirecession program.

Mrs. GREEN. You are very emphatic that education is not a Federal responsibility. Studies of the selective-service rejection rate for failure to pass the selective-service tests show that in Oregon in 1955, 2.1 percent were rejected, and in another State as high as 45 percent were rejected. There are no statistics and no surveys have ever been made which show that the youngsters of one State are inherently