tunate. I was trying to figure out how to get around it without going into the merit rating for teachers.

Dr. Teller suggested an honorary society with a prize for the results to be judged on the basis of how well they stimulated the children. I have no further questions. I certainly appreciate your testimony very much.

Mr. ELLIOTT. The gentleman from South Dakota, Mr. McGovern. Mr. McGOVERN. I want to join with my colleagues, Dr. von Braun, in commending you on the excellent statement that you offer today, and I particularly want to commend you on the statement where you point to the Soviet challenge as a total challenge, not just one in the field of weaponry.

There is one question that I would like to have your comment on. We have had a great deal of discussion in recent weeks about the rigid academic standards in the Soviet schools, of the tremendous strides that they have made, academically speaking.

Is it not true, in general, that the whole European system, not only in the Soviet Union but in other European countries, reflects this same standard of excellence, the rigid academic discipline that we have learned about in the Soviet Union?

Mr. VON BRAUN. Sir, for all the very obvious strides that the Soviet educational system has made lately, I think it is not at all a system that we would simply want to copy. I think the Soviet educational system has many, many highly undesirable aspects.

In a nutshell, I would say it is a system which produces scientists and engineers that the state needs, disregarding very much the personal inclination of the individual. This is probably quite in line with the overall philosophy inherent to any totalitarian system, that it puts the state first and the individual second. The entire Soviet educational system is governed by this consideration first and foremost, that it is the job and the task of the Soviet educational system to produce whatever the country needs in terms of scientists and engineers for the future.

I think in this respect there is a great difference between the Soviet system and the educational systems in Western Europe. So one should be very careful in mixing these two up.

The western European education system has a century-old tradition for academic freedom and putting the individual first, and almost disregarding the interest of the state.

I would say there is only one element where I find a very great similarity between the two, and that is that both the Soviet system and the western European system adhere to the principle of, shall we say, the survival of the fittest in the educational system.

There is a lot of screening and examining going on as a student moves up from the lower grades to the higher grades of education, and he is washed out with a lot more ruthlessness than apparently is the case in this country.

If a child flunks an examination, he may be given just another chance, but if he flunks again, then he has had it, and he will be shunted off into a less ambitious career.

Mr. McGOVERN. What you are saying, then, Dr. von Braun, is that the chief aim of education should be not simply to produce weapons for the state, but what we ought to do and ought to try to do is to produce rounded individuals and healthy minded individuals who are grounded in all the academic disciplines?

Mr. VON BRAUN. Yes, sir. I think, by and large, you can put it this way. I am speaking from the European background. I had my education in Western Europe.

By and large, I feel the emphasis on the entire American educational system is a little bit along the lines of "Let us give everybody a chance to get a high-school education, a college education, and go as far as he can and wants to go, and his parents are capable of paying for him, whereas in Europe the emphasis is a little more on "Let us disregard the less able and the less ambitious. If he doesn't make the grade, forget him and concentrate on the more gifted and don't ballast the upper levels in the educational structure with people who either do not have the drive or do not want to work hard enough or do not have the ability to aspire to the higher grades."

Mr. McGOVERN. Dr. von Braun, if the Federal Government were to develop some kind of a Federal scholarship or fellowship program to encourage students to encourage their education beyond the high school, should that program be limited in any way to a particular field of study, let us say science or mathematics, or should those scholarships be offered without strings attached, to permit the student to go into any field where he has an interest?

Mr. VON BRAUN. By and large, I feel it should be kept as broad as possible. On the other hand, I could envision that there are some practical limitations.

For example, there are colleges that are church-supported in this country, quite a few of them and, of course, you may get into an area there where it may be a little difficult to draw the line from what point on Federal money is going to direct support of the churches. So you must draw some practical line somewhere.

Mr. McGOVERN. I was not referring to that type of limitation. What I am getting at is: Should the scholarships be limited to a student who agrees to major in mathematics, in science, or engineering, or should that student be told that if he can meet the academic requirements of the university that he has the freedom to major in any field of study that he chooses? For example, can he be a political science major, or a history major, or go into the field of the humanities, the fine arts?

Mr. VON BRAUN. I think there is probably a need for people in all these fields, but should it turn out that most of the students tend to go into fields which are of less concern to the Federal Government, it may be well to attach certain strings to certain scholarships; in other words, to have a limited number of scholarships for the humanities, and maybe more for the natural sciences, depending on the need.

Mr. McGOVERN. The reason I ask that question is that in your first statements, I thought you were on very solid ground when you warned us that the Soviet challenge is a broad challenge, it is in the field of economics, it is in the field of culture, even in the field of religion.

It would seem to indicate that we need people in all these areas who are competent to meet that challenge on all fronts, aside from the value of those disciplines to our own society.

Mr. VON BRAUN. Yes, I agree with this completely.

Mr. McGOVERN. Many thanks.

Mr. ELLIOTT. The gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Griffin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Doctor, I was wondering, following up the question of Mr. Haskell, whether you know of any system of rewarding or recognizing outstanding teachers in the European system that we

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might look to. In what ways in the European system do they recognize outstanding teachers?

Mr. VON BRAUN. I would say first and foremost is the fact that in practically all European countries the teacher and the university professor and the college professor ranks much higher in the social hierarchy than in this country. In a typical small European town, the local college professor is quite a dignitary. Shall we say a university professor is really quite something. It may be quite significant that, for example, the President of the Federal Republic of Germany, in Western Germany, is usually introduced, up to this very day, as the president Professor Heuss, which means the professor title is so important over there that even the president of a state uses his professor title. It just shows what academic status his title carries.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a problem of our local community as far as the prestige of this profession is concerned. What about the relative salaries of professors and teachers in Europe as compared with other professions?

Mr. VON BRAUN. As compared with other professions, it is very definitely higher in Europe. The actual level is not higher, but the temptation to leave the alma mater too early is much less in Europe. When I was a student, it was a particular honor and distinction for a doctor of philosophy from the University of Berlin to be selected by his professor to serve as an assistant to him for 2 or 3 years of postgraduate study. After the man had worked as an assistant for a renowned teacher and scholar for 2 or 3 years of postgraduate study, he became far more attractive even for industry than when he was just, shall we say, a freshman doctor of philosophy.

So the tendency to hang onto the university after you get your degree is much greater over there.

This has something to do with pay also, because when a man has his doctor of philosophy and he wants to get married, the temptation is very great to go out in industry and take a well-paying job. But I feel in this country the gradient is so high, the temptation is so very high for him to take such job because even beginners are paid so much higher than they can ever make at a university, so that it takes a superhuman effort to really hang on. If there is not a booming economy outside where he can make money fast, his temptation is not so great and the result is that people stay longer with their teaching institutions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While this would not solve the whole problem, I imagine you certainly would encourage somehow increasing the teachers' salaries?

Mr. VON BRAUN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As far as the screening and testing process that is utilized in Western Europe, one example that comes to my mind that we are all familiar with is Winston Churchill who is not a scientist but who is recognized as a brilliant scholar now, who did not do very well in his early days in school. Do you suppose we would lose many scientists on a comparable situation?

Mr. VON BRAUN. I think a genius has his own rules.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I was wondering.

Mr. VON BRAUN. I would not necessarily apply this example of Winston Churchill to be very typical in this area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think that is one of the things that we are concerned about, when you put these barriers in that and screen people so definitely that you sometimes may block out some real talent.

Mr. VON BRAUN. I believe the problem is that some children and some youngsters develop relatively late, so they may flunk an examination when they were young, which they wouldn't if they had had a chance 2 or 3 years later.

For example, I flunked classes because I was poor in mathematics and physics when I was 12 or 13, and later on I picked it up again. So these things happen.

But I feel as long as there is a possibility for a child to go into the higher educational groove, even after he was dropped back for 2 or 3 years, this takes care of it.

It is a very rare case that a man develops into a genius only after he is 40 or 50—it is rare. If a man is really that good, he will probably make it anyway. You cannot put a barrier in his way, no matter how hard you try.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We are certainly glad you came back and passed the test.

I will not take up any more of the committee's time. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ELLIOTT. The gentleman from Minnesota, Mr. Wier.

Mr. WIER. Mr. Chairman. I merely want to say that I join in with the others in being honored this morning with your presence here to give us the benefit of your long experience in this field, and your great experience. You made a very good condensed statement and a very wholesome statement. I think you cut out a job for us to do. The concept of our American people and the field of education, which is probably the most sensitive of our whole economy here in this Nation, the autonomy of a little school board at the local level, they are going to reign supreme, they are going to make the decision. This has been historically so. Congress is under continual threat when we attempt, as may be forecast by many, that now the Federal Government is moving into the educational field. I often found that, when we relate education to military, the threat becomes greater. I listen to some of those who have presented their backgrounds and their thinking on this problem that America faces today regarding comparisons of our way of education and other countries' ways of education. Some of them are well advised and well posted upon the educational operations in other countries. That is what I think is the great difference between our system of education, our democratic process of education, and those in which other nations control it a little more.

I was interested because you did get your primary education, or your preliminary education in the German schools, as to what part they are playing in developing, as they have developed in the past and from which you arose, this scientific work. Is it done with--I do not like to use the word "compulsion"? Germany is closer to the realities of the Russian threat than perhaps our country is, and they have had a long experience in this field of developing people in the sciences.

Do they use any other means of interesting and directing the youth into these fields than we do here?

Mr. VON BRAUN. Sir, particularly in the elementary and secondary schools, I find the following difference. I may be painting with a very broad brush, but I think this is the crux here.

Mr. WIER. Let us not discuss Russia.

Mr. VON BRAUN. I am talking about Germany now. There is more concern, by and large, for the gifted child than for the slowest child in the class. I think there is a certain tendency in most American schools to adjust the rate of teaching to, shall we say, the slowest child in the class, with a result that the brighter child finds the school rather dull. This is a pretty dangerous thing because at this age, particularly in the elementary and secondary schools, the bright child wants to be inspired and he wants to be challenged, and if you blunt his senses at this tender age by making school dull for him because the classroom procedures are adjusted to the slowest child in the class, then you lose some of your best talent there.

This is a kind of irreparable thing. Once they lose interest in working, then they stop reading, and their interest is eliminated. Then it is very, very difficult to get such a child back to the right track.

I think one answer to this would be a kind of two-level educational system even in secondary and high schools.

Most European countries have just that. In other words, they take a look at the children between the ages of 6 and 10, or so, and if they are not capable of keeping up with the pace that leads to high school and college and university education, they shunt them off into kind of a lower echelon educational system.

Mr. WIER. I have one more question.

Mr. VON BRAUN. To answer the question raised in this connections by Mr. Haskell, they can still go back to the higher schools after a number of years, if they all of a sudden develop into brighter children. This method offers the advantage that the brighter children have a better opportunity. They are not delayed by the slower ones. Mr. WIER. My next question. I would have a lot of them, but I know others want to ask questions.

I am aware of the fact that your time in this country has been limited and perhaps your nationwide contacts have been limited, but due to the high evaluation this Nation puts upon your services and your knowledge, I would like to ask you, because this is a rather controversial question:

Have you had experience in your work in this missile field in this Nation, and in science in this Nation, to feel that this Nation today, the United States, has not got or does not possess the needed scientists to bolster your work? Are they difficult to find? Are they prepared in such numbers to progress?

I also realize that this missile field and this airspace field is new to this country, and they have not worked in that direction, with the possible exception of a few. If you were to call for help tomorrow on a big project for scientists, do you feel that this country has an available supply of men talented to step in?

Mr. VON BRAUN. Sir, I would answer this question as follows: We definitely find all the engineers and scientists we need, but I find that it is very difficult to find people that excel in several disciplines at the same time. By large, the educational product-and I am now speaking of technical institutions-is more specialized and more narrow than the equivalent output from most European institutions.