Mr. TOLBERT. That is right.

Senator AIKEN. Do you think if there were no such guarantee, that foreign nationals would be as willing to come in for emergency crop harvesting?

Mr. TOLBERT. This is purely a guess on my part, Senator. I hope you understand that. I am guessing at what foreign governments would do, and that is rather hazardous, but I do not think we would get an agreement with any of these foreign governments to bring their nationals in here as emergency farm workers without a certain amount of guarantees of some kind.

Senator AIKEN. The guarantee in this case to be made by the private employer?

Mr. TOLBERT. We feel that should not be carried at Federal expense any more. If it is necessary for a farmer or group of farmers to bring them in and they do need to bring them in and it is certified as provided for in this bill, it should be done at their expense.

Senator AIKEN. As I understand it, you advocate the disposal of the publicly owned camps?

Mr. TOLBERT. Yes, sir.

Senator AIKEN. It is apparent that only the large employers would be able to purchase those camps. I am wondering if that would work to the disadvantage of the small fellow who only wants perhaps from one to five employees for certain parts of the year.

Mr. TOLBERT. Well, Senators, if I may, I would like to describe two conditions which are quite evident in my own territory. The association that I represent is primarily made up of groups of small farmers.

The CHAIRMAN. What kind of farmers? What do they engage in? Mr. TOLBERT. Food crops, canning crops, raw crops, and hops. What we find is this: That the large farmers have housing available. The small farmer in the main draws the labor in the publicly owned

camps.

In my own particular association, we have a camp at Dayton, Oreg., that houses some seven or eight hundred people that gives us a supply of between four and five hundred agricultural workers during the

season.

Adjacent to it are two large farms. Both of those large farms have sufficient housing to take care of all of their workers.

The small farmers have banded themselves together in that county into an association, and the large farmers are helping the small farmers obtain the camp and helping them out, because they feel if that is not there without the supply of labor to take care of the small farmers, they are going to be drawing on the large farmers' labor. They are helping the small farmers so they will have their labor there.

Senator AIKEN. Now they draw labor from Government-owned camps at the present time.

Mr. TOLBERT. Yes, sir. It is federally owned and operated.
Senator AIKEN. The small farmers are organized?

Mr. TOLBERT. Yes, sir.

Senator AIKEN. Is there any assurance if this camp is sold that the organization of the small farmers would get it?

Mr. TOLBERT. We hope we have provided in this bill so that they can get it.

Senator AIKEN. Suppose some of the large operators simply came in and outbid the small ones?

Mr. TOLBERT. Well, we do not think that will happen, because that is more or less analogous with nearly all of your positions where you have a large farmer. He already has his housing.

Senator AIKEN. The small farmer would have to organize in order to hold his own.

Mr. TOLBERT. That is the reason why we are asking for a year's time to make those arrangements for organization and make arrangements for financing such as that so we can take over there.

Senator AIKEN. I understand there is objection to this bill and opposition from those who do not think that the Government should have anything whatsoever to do with anything.

Mr. TOLBERT. That is right.

Senator AIKEN. And those who think that the bill is totally inadequate in providing guarantees of adequate, proper housing and health for the recruited employees.

Mr. TOLBERT. That is right, sir. That is what I understand. Senator AIKEN. I understand they will testify tomorrow. Is there any guarantee in here of healthful working conditions?

Mr. TOLBERT. No. sir; that is left open.

Senator AIKEN. Do you think there should be? Would you raise any serious objection if there was a reasonable requirement?

Mr. TOLBERT. If it was reasonable; no, sir. I do not speak for the whole conference, but in speaking for my own organization, I would say not, because we are recruiting and bringing men into Oregon right now and we are offering certain guarantees to them.

We guarantee that if they stay with us through the season we will give them transportation both ways. We guarantee housing with cots and beds, cooking utensils, and we guarantee what the minimum wage will be.

Senator AIKEN. I think the small farmer who is not willing to organize is out of luck, anyway, unless he has an independent in

come.

I think that is all I have.

Mr. TOLBERT. I certainly wish to thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank you for your questions, Senator Aiken.

Senator AIKEN. I want to work out as good a bill as possible, and one that will pass the Congress.

Mr. TOLBERT. Senator Aiken, we know this is not perfect. The main principles we feel are important.

Senator AIKEN. Apparently there are 9 proponents willing to accept the bill as is, and tomorrow there will be 15 critics of the bill. Mr. TOLBERT. That is what we understand.

Senator AIKEN. The critics probably include those against any legislation whatsoever, and those who think the legislation does not go far enough.

Mr. TOLBERT. We understand the majority are those who think it is wholly inadequate.

Senator AIKEN. I think I could name some who are opposed to any legislation whatsoever.

Mr. TOLBERT. Oh, yes; that is probably true, sir.

Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Now we have Mr. Charles F. Seabrook, of Bridgeton, N. J.

STATEMENT OF CHARLES F. SEABROOK, SEABROOK FARMS,
BRIDGETON, N. J.

Mr. SEABROOK. My name is Charles F. Seabrook. I am president of the Seabrook Farms Co., Bridgeton, N. J. I am here in the interest of our company and other farmers in my area who are employers of domestic and foreign farm labor. I am interested in seeing established a permanent agricultural labor program, as provided in S. 133. This program should be under the supervision of the Department of Agriculture and not under the supervision of the Department of Labor or the USES.

I am particularly interested in that section of this bill which provides for the importation of foreign labor. It is my opinion that we shall need foreign agricultural workers for several years during harvest seasons.

However, it is not our desire to import foreign workers if we find that the supply of domestic workers will meet our requirements.

I believe that any expense in connection with the importation of foreign workers should be paid by the employer and not by the Gov

ernment.

If I may add something additional to this prepared short memorandum, Mr. Chairman, we operate directly about 18,500 acres of truck crops for quick freezing and canning.

We contract with between six and seven hundred farmers for additional acreage, making a total crop acreage of between 30,000 and 32,000 acres, all of which is processed.

We provide the majority of these contract farmers with their harvest labor.

Senator AIKEN. You are the largest truck farmer in the eastern United States, are you not?

Mr. SEABROOK. We are said to be. I believe we are.

Senator AIKEN. If not the entire United States?

The CHAIRMAN. How many years have you been carrying on that business?

Mr. SEABROOK. Well, Senator, I began when I was about 5, and I have been at it about 60 years. I am a farmer.

Senator AIKEN. You do the processing now, too?

Mr. SEABROOK. Yes, sir; of the quick-frozen foods. We pack the Birdseye brand as well as other brands including our own brand. We also do canning, and, of course, during the war we dehydrated food for the United States Government.

Senator AIKEN. You ship into the market also at times, or do you process everything?

Mr. SEABROOK. We process everything, with the exception of some apples. We have three or four hundred acres of apples which we ship fresh. We process all of the vegetables.

The CHAIRMAN. You have bad years, as well as good years.

Mr. SEABROOK. Yes, Senator, we make contracts with the farmers, and our processing company, of which I am the head, makes contracts with our farming company on exactly the same basis as with the contract farmers.

We also make contracts with our wholesalers.

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It generally works out better than gambling on the fresh market, and much better for the small farmer and certainly better for us.

We are particularly interested in the foreign nationals because we can bring in only men, single men, not women, as far as the farms are concerned.

We have our own housing. We are not interested in the housing as far as we in our area are concerned.

Well, if we were to try to recruit a large number of migrants from the Southern States, we would be up against bringing a man who would only work part of the time, and who has a wife and 10 children. The wife and children may work some of the time, but not on the farms. That would involve a great deal of additional housing, and a great deal of transportation costs.

The foreign nationals, the Jamaicans and the West Indians, do work steadily.

As far as being willing to work and save their money, they are as near Scotchmen as anybody I have run across. I have never seen Negroes like that before. Negroes we have in the United States, the large majority of them, after they work about 3 days, go and spend the money before they work any more. It takes a great many more of them.

Besides, the harvesting season of the people in the Southern States comes on very often at the time when our harvesting season is on.

Aside from winter vegetables, there is cotton in the South and so on, and the harvest season comes on.

So we are opposed to the idea of pirating of labor from one state to another, although we do get some bean pickers from the South.

Senator AIKEN. You imported labor before the war, or before the depression?

Mr. SEABROOK. We did not import foreign labor before because we were not permitted to. We did bring migrants from the South, mostly from Florida on a reciprocity arrangement, with certain large growers, including the sugar plantation down there.

Senator AIKEN. Was there not some way you could import labor for the emergency harvesting work before the war?

Mr. SEABROOK. Not that I know of.

Senator AIKEN. It seems to me that up in the New England States, some of our pulp companies imported Canadians for cutting pulp for a certain period of time. I wonder how they made those arrange

ments.

Mr. SEABROOK. I do not know of any such arrangements.

Senator AIKEN. Possibly it was not before the war. It might have been immediately after the war.

Mr. SEABROOK. You could import, and I have, over a period of time, occasionally imported specialists if there was a shortage of them in this country.

Senator AIKEN. How much labor did you recruit annually outside of your own South Jersey community?

Mr. SEABROOK. We recruit from the West Indies or Jamaica some seven hundred to a thousand. We obtain from the South, largely for picking beans and for a comparatively short period of time, about 21/2 months, about a thousand to 1,200 men.

However, if we were able to obtain more labor, we could produce many more beans.

Senator AIKEN. Do you use whatever local labor is available?

Mr. SEABROOK. We use what local labor is available, and our regular farm help. That is, the help that operates tractors and machinery, and we are highly mechanized, is largely local labor. They are both white and Negro. A large percentage of them on the farm are Negro. They are skilled and very satisfactory and draw quite a high rate of pay. As a matter of fact, they belong to a union.

Senator AIKEN. They are unionized?

Mr. SEABROOK. Yes.

Senator AIKEN. What union do they belong to?

Mr. SEABROOK. Well, it is the Butchers, Workmen and Packinghouse Union.

Senator AIKEN. That does not apply to the timber and harvest help, though?

Mr. SEABROOK. No. Our packinghouse operations are unionized under that union, and they being so near together, while we do not generally exchange them, we have to transfer them from one company to the other to exchange them.

Because of that there would be a good deal of dissatisfaction, we thought it best if part of them were going to belong, to have them all belong to the union.

We recognize the Wagner Act does not cover agricultural labor. The packinghouse workers in the warehouses have of course the teamsters and warehousemen.

Senator AIKEN. Does the leadership of the union show a considerable degree of responsibility in seeing that they comply with the terms under which they are hired?

Mr. SEABROOK. We have had no trouble whatsoever with the union. The Packinghouse Union, the Butcher Workmen's Union, as we call it, does not handle the people as efficiently or as forcefully as do the teamsters and warehousemen.

The teamsters and warehousemen contrary to what many people think really do a job as far as our people are concerned.

Senator AIKEN. That is, in getting their members to live up to the terms of the agreement?

Mr. SEABROOK. 100 percent to their agreement; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Pepper, have you any questions?
Senator PEPPER. I do not have any questions, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. We thank you very much, Mr. Seabrook.
Mr. SEABROOK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. The next witness we will call is Mr. Dixon Pearce, representing the Florida Vegetable Committee. He comes from Miami.

STATEMENT OF DIXON PEARCE, REPRESENTING FLORIDA

VEGETABLE COMMITTEE, MIAMI, FLA.

Mr. PEARCE. My name is Dixon Pearce and I am a tomato grower in south Florida, and a director of the Florida Vegetable Committee. I appear before you as a farmer to support the legislation under consideration. We support all portions of this legislation, but I wish