It would take the wisdom of Solomon to define the boundary line between the programs of education and health. In the field of public health, we have adapted some of our facilities to the requirements of the Pennsylvania Society for Crippled Children and Adults. The camping experience which these unfortunate youngsters are able to enjoy in our parks is truly a part of the public health program. The resident physician at Camp Easter Seal, in Laurel Hill State Park told me last season that in his estimation, the therapeutic value of the camping experience for most of the crippled children far overshadowed the value of any similar treatment conducted in their home areas.

As I mentioned earlier, former Governor Leader indicated a connection between the incidence of mental health problems and the opportunities provided the residents of our crowded cities for wholesome outdoor recreation. He definitely indicated that State park recreation could quite possibly be an integral part of a program designed to prevent the occurrence or to lessen the severity of mental disorders. Many years ago the pioneers in the mental health field recognized the therapy of quiet forest settings in their design and choice of location for the early hospitals erected for the care of the mentally ill.

To illustrate the connection between our State parks and Armed Forces training, I want to point out that we frequently receive requests for bivouac and maneuver areas. National Guard units utilize areas in our State parks for almost every conceivable type of exercise, except the use of live ammunition. Engineer units construct and demolish bridges and roads. Armored units conduct tank exercises. Infantry units maneuver through our forested and open areas. Medical units set up and tear down field hospitals. Just recently, a Marine unit stormed the beaches of Presque Isle State Park. All of these and others utilize the facilities of Pennsylvania's State parks.

Within the realm of civil defense our position is growing in importance each day. We have been called upon to make our facilities available for the use of large service units as evacuation headquarters. Just last week, a delegation visited my office asking permission to use three of our locations as assembly points in case of enemy attack. The location of our State parks, their designs, the facilities included therein, obviously make them highly attractive to civil defense authorities when they are considering the needs of our country in the event of another war.

I think that because of their importance to our education programs, because of their great values for wholesome living, and because of their importance to our defense program, the recreational facilities of our States are entitled to the great benefits they would derive from being eligible for Federal surplus property.

I would like to conclude with a short statement concerning our purpose in requesting favorable consideration of Senate bill No. 1766.

The root of all evil-the almighty dollar-is our motivating purpose. I could speak at some length on the subject of the financial plight of my Commonwealth, but I know full well that you gentlemen represent States which are similarly afflicted. Let me say then that the funds needed to properly maintain our State park facilities are, indeed, in extremely short supply. Favorable action on this bill will make available to us large quantities of valuable equipment and supplies for which we would otherwise have to spend our scarce maintenance dollars or do without.

As I indicated earlier, I believe that the benefits of this bill to the taxpayers of our Commonwealth will far outweigh the added administrative burden which the bill, if passed, will place upon the distributing agency; and I also sincerely believe, and I trust that you will agree, that Congress originally intended that agencies providing such services and maintaining such facilities as our State park system does, should be afforded the benefits of the Federal surplus disposal program.

I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, and you gentlemen of the committee for the courtesy that you have shown to me and for the serious consideration that I know you will give this important bill.

Mr. GODDARD. Mr. Chairman, my name is Maurice K. Goddard, secretary of forests and waters of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. My associate is Mr. Joseph A. Blatt, chief of the Division of State Parks of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

We are appearing in support of Senate bill 1766. I think in the review of legislation previously introduced and in the discussion here again today, two points are raised.

First, it was admitted by the witnesses who preceded me that the basic purpose for which this bill was introduced is praiseworthy. And then it was stated that any increase in the number of eligible recipients of Federal surplus would definitely have an adverse effect upon the administration of the distribution program.

Now, both of these statements are true and correct. The only questions, therefore, that must be answered are, first, whether the beneficial effects of this bill, as they will be realized by the taxpayers, are of enough value to offset the increased administrative burden which will be placed upon the distributing agency; and second, and perhaps more important, whether the intent of Congress is being fulfilled by the act of 1949, as amended.

We believe there is a direct relationship between recreation and health, education, and welfare. All of our parks in Pennsylvania are used by educational groups, by science groups, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, 4-H Clubs, and the Grange, particularly those parks in areas that surround the large metropolitan areas. The crippled children in Pennsylvania, for example, use our State parks, and we have two fine programs in this respect.

Our juvenile delinquency program uses two of our State parks. We have introduced legislation in Pennsylvania now to create a third. We call these youth forestry camps, and they are patterned after the CCC program. But we take juvenile delinquents, and take them into the State parks and use them there.

We can report that of all the boys who have gone through these camps we have not had a repeater yet. I am not saying that we are not going to have a repeater. But this is in direct contrast to the experience in reformatories and the other types of correctional institutions in the Commonwealth.

So we feel, Mr. Chairman, that there is a direct relationship between health, education, and welfare and the park system.

We also want to point out that civil defense is using and planning to use many of our park headquarters as centers of communication in times of emergencies. And we have made arrangements with one great Federal agency to use one of our parks in time of an emergency as an evacuation headquarters.

We have housing, we have water, sewage and other types of facilities so they can be used in a civil defense emergency.

So we feel that there is a direct relationship between a good park system and these other things which receive support through the present surplus disposal program.

I think, too, that we can minimize, perhaps, this problem of administration. As has been pointed out by one of the witnesses from the GSA we do get support from the U.S. Forest Service and very fine surplus support for our fire protection activities, under the ClarkMcNary Act. As I see it, the Forest Service could help administer the material we get for recreational programs. This is material which they are aware of. And we could process it in exactly the same manner as we process firefighting equipment under the Clark-McNary Act.

I will grant it is going to make for administrative complications. But I certainly think the benefits to be derived from expanding it to

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recreational activities is worth the additional administrative problems that will be created.

In essence, sir, that is the sum and substance of our testimony. Senator GRUENING. Thank you very much. I think that is a very helpful presentation. I think the committee would be very sympathetic to the needs you have expressed. It is always a question of conflicting interests, whether there is enough to go around.

We are approaching the hour where we have to adjourn until tomorrow. I would like to ask if there is anyone here, of the remaining witnesses, who would not find it convenient to be here tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

Mr. CURRAN. I would like to testify at this time, Mr. Chairman. Senator GRUENING. Very well. Come forward, sir, and identify yourself for the record.

STATEMENT OF JAMES W. CURRAN, SUPERINTENDENT OF

PRISONS, STATE OF MARYLAND

Mr. CURRAN. My name is James Curran. I am superintendent of prisons, State of Maryland. I am an officer and member of the board. of directors of the American Correctional Association, and as such I am authorized to appear here and testify.

First of all, I want to thank you for the opportunity you have given me to testify this morning.

Senator GRUENING. Are you testifying in favor of any particular measure?

Mr. CURRAN. No, Senator. I desire to ask for consideration by the committee to expand and to extend the program of donation of personal property to include the correctional institutions, the State correctional institutions of our country.

There are 170,000 prisoners in State correctional and penal institutions in the various States of this country, and of that number we believe that about 25 to 30 percent are below the fourth grade level of education. We believe, too, that the correctional program that we project for rehabilitating prisoners is essentially educational. And that as such, we feel that much could be derived in helping our program if we were included specifically in legislation that would make us eligible to receive this surplus property that is being distributed through the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare.

I am also a member of the Advisory Board of the Maryland State Agency for Surplus Property, and as such, I come in contact with what passes through our State. I have every reason to believe that the agencies that are so declared as eligible in the State of Maryland are receiving sufficient, and there is in addition to that other surplus property that might well be used profitably in the correctional institutions of our State.

For that reason, plus the fact that correctional institutions get a small share or a portion of the State funds for their operation, this would be a supplementation to our funds that we do receive to project a program.

Senator GRUENING. To the extent that your needs are educationaland I have no doubt that they are-can you not persuade the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare to take that into consideration in its allocation of surplus?

Mr. CURRAN. We have applied, Senator. In two cases they have agreed to declare two of our institutions eligible to the extent of the educational program in those two particular institutions. However, there are three others that are not eligible. And there are hundreds, really, throughout the country that are not receiving this personal property.

We believe that the whole program of correction is educational, and it is not confined strictly to academic training and vocational, but personal hygiene, the spiritual guidance, the recreational programs, which all contribute to an overall picture of education. And since 98 percent of these 170,000 prisoners that are incarcerated in State prisons in the country are going to return to society, we feel that it is incumbent upon us, as prison administrators, to project programs that will tend to educate them so that they will be better suited and better fitted to return as resourceful and productive citizens of our country.

We appeal to you for your consideration to include the correctional and penal institutions of America, that is, State penal and correctional institutions, in this program, because we feel much good can be derived from it.

Senator GRUENING. Well, granting the validity of your plea, if we were to have another bill introduced which would extend surplus property distribution to these penal institutions, that would still further intensify the objections of the General Services Administration that there is not enough to go around.

I would suggest to you that since you have had the vision to present this case, you proceed along those lines and try to get what you can for your Maryland institutions, having the prestige and the foresight of being there first.

I think that another bill further complicating this situation would stand a relatively small chance of passage.

But I think your personal plea on behalf of your institutions might achieve some results.

That is just my personal view. I cannot speak for the other members of the committee or the Congress.

Mr. CURRAN. I appreciate your advice, Senator. Thank you very

much.

Senator GRUENING. There are a number of statements here which we will place in the record at this point. A statement by Senator Mundt on S. 2244; a statement by Representative McGovern on S. 2244; a letter from the American Association for State and Local History; and a telegram from the National Association for Retarded Children on behalf of S. 1365.

(The statements referred to follow :)

STATEMENT OF HON. KARL E. MUNDT, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF SOUTH DAKOTA, ON S. 2244

Senator MUNDT. Mr. Chairman, as one who lives in an area where there is a large number of Indians, I am well aware of the needs of our Indian neighbors on reservations. The passage of this bill will do something to give some assistance to Indians who certainly deserve whatever consideration we can work out for them.

Health problems constitute a pressing need for many Indian tribes. It is conceivable to me that there may be equipment and material available from time to time to assist the Indian people in their efforts to improve sanitary conditions or to meet special health situations.

Schools and education can also be put in the shortage category on Indian reservations. From time to time, there may be surplus property available which can successfully contribute to alleviation of education deficiencies.

Roads and transportation, on a number of reservations, is one more area where much more can be done to assist Indian tribes.

Housing is always in short supply. The Congress and the Government could well make a special effort in this field. However, in the meantime passage of this legislation could offer some relief in this matter.

Enactment of this legislation is only simple justice, Mr. Chairman. We ought to have done it when the original act was passed. Every supporting argument in favor of making surplus property and equipment available to other segments of our society can be applied twofold in the case of our American Indians.

If there is any member of the committee who has any doubts about the need for assistance, or the merit of the argument in favor of this legislation, I would invite him to visit some of the Indian reservations in the United States. On nearly all of them there is near poverty. Most of them are overcrowded with little or no opportunity for economic advancement. The Indian population, because it has been hemmed in, denied opportunity, has a cultural lag equal to about the last 50 years of advancement in the United States. This has been due to no fault of their own.

Whenever we can, by some amendment to an existing law, include Indian tribes on the same equal footing with other people in this Nation, we ought not to avoid the opportunity. Therefore, I hope that the committee will report this measure quickly so that it can be approved in this session of Congress.

STATEMENT OF HON. GEORGE MCGOVERN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF SOUTH DAKOTA

Mr. McGOVERN. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am grateful for this opportunity to testify in behalf of legislation to promote the welfare of the Indian tribes by making available to them surplus personal property. Representing the First District of the State of South Dakota, with a heavy Indian population and several major reservations, my interest in S. 2244 has led me to introduce identical legislation in the other Chamber.

Under existing law, 40 U.S.C., paragraph 484 (j)–(k), the General Services Administration is authorized to donate federally owned surplus personal property to State agencies for use in State and local health, education, and civil-defense programs, or for redistribution to private, nonprofit organizations having the same purposes. The general intent of Congress in making surplus property available to