American Recreation' Society. I am also the committee chairman for standards for parks, recreation areas, and open spaces on the Baltimore Regional Planning Council. I am also the former chairman. of the Maryland State Council on Parks and am a member of the Maryland Advisory Committee for the Development of the Gunpowder River Valley State Park.

I mention this not to sell myself, but only to clarify the functions of the various professional members of the American Recreation Society. I have also given a supporting statement, made it available to the committee, and I would like to say that I am not here in the position of wanting property, but to represent the definite need for property.

In our statement-in my statement, we call your attention to the fact of the needs and the demands for property for recreation and park facilities on local, county, State, and municipal levels. This need today is a very serious one and at a time when the National Government is concerned with the lack of fitness in our youth, the future of our aged, the rise in juvenile delinquency, the upsurge of mental illness and the lack of opportunity for the pursuit of happiness, the loss of wilderness areas, our disappearing shoreline and water areas, I would like to emphasize that our local governments are all vitally concerned with this problem.

There is also an increasing awareness on the part of people of their potential ability to provide through recreational park facilities and programs at least a partial solution to many of the problems that I have indicated.

Answering your first question-Is surplus property available—I can only go to my own State of Maryland and to my own political subdivision, Baltimore County, and say we are confident there is surplus property there in the matter of land, access to the waters of the Chesapeake Bay

Senator GRUENING. Land. Do you include land as surplus prop erty?

Mr. SNYDER. I am assuming, sir, that that is true.

Now, as to whether or not that property is or has been declared surplus, I do not know. I do know that it is there as a part of the military reservation. It is and could be part of a tremendous park facility serving the people of the State of Maryland.

Senator GRUENING. I hope you understand that that is an issue. which is not primarily before us. The distribution of land is a problem largely outside of the sphere of this hearing. We are dealing chiefly with the surplus property that is tangible property, which is made available. I am interested in your thoughts about land, but that really raises another question.

Mr. SNYDER. I am sorry, sir. I did not appreciate the fact that land was not a part.

Senator GRUENING. May I ask you one question? Have you seen a list of these bills that are before the committee?

Mr. SNYDER. I have seen the list here this morning.

Senator GRUENING. Under which of these bills do you believe your needs could be taken care of?

Mr. SNYDER. I am sorry, sir. I have not read the bills. I have not read all of them.

Senator GRUENING. Well, you have the titles of the bills which make fairly evident what are the bills' purposes.

S. 1766, introduced by Senator Clark, is to amend the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949 to permit the donation and other disposal of property to tax-supported public recreation agencies. That is the fifth bill from the top.

Would passage of that bill satisfy your needs as far as you know? Mr. SNYDER. I Would like to say this, that I have assumed property meant both real and other property, and that land and water areas would be a part of surplus property.

Now, I may say this, that in the development of parks, recreation areas, on the local government level, the use of other equipment such as machines, trucks, tractors, supplies and equipment of various types is

Senator GRUENING. There is one bill here which I introduced by request, S. 2270, that makes possible transfer of certain real properties for wildlife preservation. Would that include your needs? It is a clarification of existing law. I don't know whether that will take care of your needs or not.

Mr. SNYDER. I have assumed the need is for property, real property, land water areas. For instance, in the case of the State of Maryland, near the Aberdeen Proving Grounds you have hundreds of acres of land that give access to the Chesapeake Bay. Alongside of that is a proposed wildlife refuge. That particular area we would assume to be used for preservation of wildlife, but also as a park and access to the waters of the Chesapeake Bay. It could well be in this particular instance a part of approximately a 40-mile park along the Gunpowder River.

Senator GRUENING. What other kind of property could you find useful?

Mr. SNYDER. I mentioned we certainly would find equipment, trucks, tractors, various other kinds of mechanized equipment that could be used in the maintenance of parks, recreation areas, and facilities. Other kinds of supplies might be of any sort, because in the development of parks today, the needs are so far in front of our ability to meet them that supplies of many kinds could be used. Particularly would I say in the maintenance of parks and the building of them, that equipment of that sort would be very helpful.

Senator GRUENING. Now, both the Department of Defense and the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare have the view that there is insufficient property to meet the needs of those now eligible. Do you believe that is a correct statement? Do you agree or disagree? Mr. SNYDER. I wouldn't be able to agree or disagree with that positive statement. I know this, that we can say emphatically that we believe that the needs of the people should be met in every possible

way.

Now, as to whether or not their need is greater than the need for recreation and parks is a question. We do know this, that the leisure time of people, the demand for parks and recreation areas is far beyond our ability to meet them today locally, and it is estimated that they will increase many times in the next 20 years, so that I feel if there is surplus property that can be used, and I feel certain there is, I have already been using it in cooperation with the board of

education. It is a round-about way of getting the use of such property, but I believe that we certainly must face the tremendous demands for park and recreation facilities and programs, and if there is property of any sort available belonging to the Federal Government, I believe here is a place where the Federal Government can be of great aid to the political subdivisions of the Nation in meeting these pressing needs. Senator GRUENING. You understand that all this property that is given away, presumably ultimately goes to the people. There are just different categories of people who are represented by these bills, and the question is whether there is enough to go around to enlarge the areas into which this property can be distributed, to increase the categories of recipients, and, needless to say, every agency whose spokesmen come here feel, and quite understandably, that their agency is important and that their need is important.

Now, have you any specific evidence that there is surplus property available which could be turned over for recreation purposes which is now not being so used and is either being sold or is being stored or is not being utilized by the agencies which do get it, such as civil defense, education, and hospitals?

Mr. SNYDER. Well, I did mention in the case of the State of Maryland, certain lands, specifically Carroll Island, Graces QuartersSenator GRUENING. What is this island?

Mr. SNYDER. Carroll Island, Graces Quarters, located in Baltimore County, Md.

Senator GRUENING. Would you be specific? Tell us where these lands are.

Mr. SNYDER. They are off the mouth of the Gunpowder River, which is a part of Baltimore County, Md.

Senator GRUENING. What agency of the Federal Government now controls them?

Mr. SNYDER. The U.S. military.

Senator GRUENING. Have you reason to believe the military are prepared to declare these areas surplus?

Mr. SNYDER. We have reason to believe they may declare them surplus in the near future.

Senator GRUENING. Have you made any request that they be turned over?

Mr. SNYDER. We have not made a formal request. We have investigated it through our Maryland Senators and others as to whether or not it might be declared surplus. We have reason to believe it will be, this particular section of it.

Senator GRUENING. And if this land is declared surplus, you would like to be considered for its transfer for what purpose, a public park? Mr. SNYDER. Public park.

Senator GRUENING. Run by the city of Baltimore?

Mr. SNYDER. It might be operated by Baltimore County, which is a separate political subdivision from Baltimore City. It may be made a part of a State park. For instance, we are developing in Baltimore and around Baltimore a tremendous metropolitan region. I mentioned that I work with the Baltimore Regional Planning Council. We believe we will have there 212 million people in the next 30 years, and it is quite possible that this particular area might be made a part of a State park because we believe in this instance that the State would

be the only type of government able to handle a park that would serve not only Baltimore County, Hartford County, Baltimore City, and other adjoining political subdivisions. But certainly it is land, access to the Chesapeake Bay, that is vital to the people of the area. Senator GRUENING. Is there shorefront property there?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes. I am not sure, but probably 50 miles of shoreline into the bay.

Senator GRUENING. For what purpose is it being used now by the military?

Mr. SNYDER. It is being used-I couldn't specifically state, because it is a part of the Aberdeen Proving Ground, which is the main body lying across the mouth of the Gunpowder River, so that I do not know the specific use the military has made of it. I do know that there are other properties, particularly in western Maryland, that might be available for the development of parks.

Senator GRUENING. Would you be kind enough to submit a list of these properties that you think might be available for recreation purposes?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes; I would be glad to.

Senator GRUENING. So that we can inquire of the agency which now controls them whether they are likely to declare them surplus, and whether we can see that they are transferred for useful purposes. Are any funds available for payment of these surplus lands?

if so,

There is a provision in the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act under which the Federal Government may transfer property at one-half of its fair market or appraised value if it is to be utilized for recreational purposes. Under the so-called Morse formula, this provision of law is required as a yardstick in the approval of legislation which proposes to transfer surplus property by private law at one-half the appraised value.

Have you any knowledge whether the city of Baltimore or Baltimore County or any other political unit would be prepared to pay one-half the appraised value?

Mr. SNYDER. I might say, Senator, I have very painful knowledge of the inability to get sufficient funds to meet the needs and demands of the people for park areas. We are in a position now, and I believe this is true of certainly all of the local governments that are faced with the development of the great metropolitan regions, the urbanization of our Nation, so that frankly, in Baltimore County and in Baltimore City, we are faced--and also in the State of Maryland, even though they may have a little surplus at the present time-it is faced with the problem of getting enough money soon enough to get lands and property before it disappears.

This is particularly true of land and water areas. Our local governments are borrowing money up to the extent of their limitations, bonded indebtedness. We are trying to develop a State-the Gunpowder River Valley State Park in the State of Maryland. I think this is typical over the Nation, in which the land purchase alone will be $3.5 million for one park. Our ability to get sufficient money soon enough to acquire these areas and these facilities is extremely limited. We at least can save them for the future and for the tremendous population which we expect and have reason to believe we will reach. So that the matter of getting funds is a part of this.

I believe that you can say locally that governments, at least those I have contacted, are not looking for a giveaway, but they are looking for land, water areas that the people will want and need in the very near future. Our ability to get sufficient funds at this time is impossible because of the cost of the land purchases. All of our budgets are increasing tremendously in this field of public recreation and parks.

Senator GRUENING. I sympathize with your problem. We have similar problems elsewhere. We have one in the State of Illinois where Joliet Arsenal has some 30,000 acres. An effort is being made to get some of that, to turn it over for recreation purposes. The State of Illinois is prepared to pay a substantial amount, but it isn't quite enough to satisfy the Morse formula according to the author, Senator Morse.

Now, the administration at present seems to feel that the States should take over a far larger share of the financial responsibility than they are now doing in various fields, and that the Federal Government's participation should be diminished rather than increased, and I think that would be pertinent to the situation.

Mr. SNYDER. There is another point here I would like to bring to your attention, that with the development of our metropolitan regions and the highway system where people are on wheels, and from the standpoint of parks, it is not a case of one State providing it. In many cases we will have two or three States joining together in the development of parks, so that the fixing of responsibility on a political subdivision may be a financial responsibility that should not be carried by that particular subdivision because this park must serve and will serve the needs of adjoining States, adjoining counties, and there is much evidence of this over the Nation, this joining together by States, by counties, by cities and counties and other political subdivisions in attempting to obtain sufficient property and sufficient parks, and the operation of them. That is a real problem. I think it possibly shows I mentioned the Baltimore Regional Planning Council, in that particular instance five counties and the city of Baltimore, and we are sure we must involve the State of Pennsylvania.

Senator GRUENING. There is a bill now before this committee, S. 1431, introduced by Senator Clark, to create a Commission on Metropolitan Problems which would deal with just those matters that are interstate. But, actually, if you have more than one State, more than one county, more than one political unit working at this, it should be easier to raise the necessary funds than if it were wholly left to one unit, would it not? I appreciate the problem. It exists everywhere. Mr. SNYDER. It is a financial problem, and the thing I would like to emphasize, there is urgency. Otherwise if we are unable to move now, much of our land and water areas, particularly in these developing metropolitan regions, will be gone, and they cannot be replaced. Senator GRUENING. That is true.

Thank you very much. Your statement will be filed at this point in the record.

Mr. SNYDER. Thank you.