terest in this problem and the leadership which they are giving in the area of library information services.

Mr. Chairman, I think that is really all I want to say in the way of formal remarks and I would be most happy to respond to questions from the subcommittee.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Thank you very much for a most helpful statement. What are the biggest problems you have encountered with respect to encouraging planning within the State and across State boundaries in the library and information resources field?

Mr. PITTENGER. One, of course, is simply the problem of funds to which the chairman has already addressed himself.

That situation is so well known to everyone that I probably need not comment further.

Another problem, I would say, particularly when you talk about cooperation across State lines, is what seems to me to be a kind of lack in this field and in others of adequate vehicles for doing that.

It seems to me that one of the things that the White House conference ought to explore is the question of whether or not we can create a political and other institutions in the broadest sense that are capable of dealing with problems across State lines.

It does not make very much sense for Pennsylvania to develop an information system that is wholly independent of what is happening in New Jersey, Ohio, Maryland, and West Virginia.

On the other hand, I am not sure I am terribly keen about the idea of the Office of Education devising an information system for the entire United States.

I would say, therefore, that the lack of adequate mechanisms for dealing with problems on an interstate basis is one of the principal difficulties in the field at the present time.

Mr. BRADEMAS. What, if you were asked to come up with an agenda of subjects for discussion by a White House Conference on Libraries, would you propose?

Mr. PITTENGER. I think I have indicated perhaps already, Mr. Chairman, in my comments about three major questions.

One is the problem relationship of the Federal Government, the States, and the local communities.

That is always a perplexing problem. I take it the view of the White House is that the National Government has no role to play in these

matters.

That is not a view that I share, but there are some difficult questions about what the proper role is.

Then I think there is another item which ought to be considered and that is the relationship between different kinds of informationproviding services.

Citizens in Pennsylvania complain to me from time to time that in a medium-sized community in Pennsylvania we are supporting a school library and three blocks down the street a borough or township or county library.

There may be reasons for that. But I think it also raises some problems.

I would say a third terribly important question is the one of technology-how do computers and television and cable television and the possibility now, I gather, technically feasible of two-way com

munication by television-how do those things fit into libraries and information services?

Mr. BRADEMAS. Thank you very much.

There are many other questions I would put to you but there are many other witnesses and I want to be sure my colleagues have a chance to put questions to you.

Mr. Hansen?

Mr. HANSEN. Let me also express my appreciation for your testimony and your presence here.

Before putting a question to you. I would join in the remarks of our chairman and the chairman of the full committee in paying tribute to the librarians across the country.

I doubt if there is any group in the country that are more dedicated, have a deeper love for their work and. I suspect, get less public recognition for support and encouragement than the librarians.

I know and I am sure you are well acquainted with our State librarian, Helen Miller, who is unable to be here. She has been a very strong supporter of these programs.

I have the privilege of working with Helen during my service in our State legislature. I want to ask you about State support on libraries, in just a moment.

I would endorse the Ford-Brademas proposal for the White House conference. This is a logical and welcome combination of support for an idea whose time indeed has come.

It would seem to me that among all the purposes that a White House conference can serve, and you have alluded to many of the important items that ought to be on the agenda, one of the most important is to give visability to our libraries and the sad condition many of them are in and what we need to do for them if they are going to serve their purpose.

It is that kind of understanding and enlightenment, it would appear to me, that is essential to the kind of support that is reflected in appropriations at the local level, at the State and at the Federal level.

They all have a role and as you point out properly a White House Conference can help identify the role that each must play in the total

effort.

My question relates now to the State role. I must confess that I have been disappointed in noting the level of support that many States, through their State appropriations, have furnished to the libraries.

I have been disappointed that the States have not seen fit to allocate more of their revenue-sharing funds to libraries which are included the purposes of general revenue sharing.

Would you comment on the State level and the success that you have had or lack of it, perhaps, in Pennsylvania in persuading the State legislature that it has an important responsibility in providing funds

for libraries.

Mr. PITTENGER. I think there is no question but that the States have room to improve, but I would not include Pennsylvania in that statement.

It seems to me indeed one of the purposes that a White House conference could in fact play is to highlight the State role.

I would not want to suggest for a moment that it is exclusively or even predominantly a Federal role. I think you are absolutely right in saying there is a problem of visibility.

I think partly the modesty and dedication of a great many libraries while on the one hand is commendable, but on the other hand has tended to make them less perhaps vocal than they ought to be in saying they are doing something that is terribly important and it is high time that people stood up and noticed it.

I think that a White House conference could play a very useful role in highlighting the responsibilities of the State in this area and would indeed furnish me with ammunition to go to my legislature and Governor and say, "Listen here, some distinguished folks have considered this problem and have concluded while there is an important Federal role to play, there is a heavy State responsbility that we have not yet met.

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. BRADEMAS. Mr. Peyser?

Mr. PEYSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am delighted to be here and also to have had the privilege of joining with some of you last night. I hope you do notice in the bipartisan move up here that the chairman is flanked by two Republicans, one on either side of him.

We have him outnumbered two to one at this point, which is at least the odds we need if we are ever in conflict with him.

On this particular issue we are not in conflict at all and there is a very strong bipartisan support for the libraries, for the White House Conference, and I guess more importantly right now for continuing the financial programs and, if possible, enlarging them to improve the library programs throughout the country.

The odds just got turned around. We are even now that the Democrats have come back.

I would like to take this opportunity to deviate for just a moment because I know you are all very deeply involved in this whole educational process, and your voices are heard in many parts of the land.

I understand there are 40 States represented here this morning. Something was published today in the New York Times which is very disturbing to me and bears very much on the education of our young people. Certainly this is the area that you are working with very largely. A recommendation has been made and I will ask you your thoughts on it even though I am expressing mine very firmly-by the National Commission on Reform of Secondary Education.

They have come out with a report that in effect is saying that schools should no longer require compulsory attendance after the age of 14. It is now 16 nationally. To me, this would be giving up the ship on education for many, many millions of young people, to say nothing of the impact on the labor situation and otherwise.

It would seem to me that the libraries are where many young people, at least I am going to assume this and then ask, really begin to get their voluntary interest going at this age because they are being stimulated. Do you find from your experience in this field that there is active participation in the libraries, among young people 14 and older?

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Is this an age that people begin to get awakened many times for the use of libraries?

Mr. PITTENGER. I suppose I am the wrong person to ask that question but I will try to give an answer.

I think the people who will follow me to this witness stand are much better able to answer it than I am.

I think the answer in part is yes, there are people between the ages of 14 and 17 who come alive intellectually for the first time.

I had better disassociate myself from the chiefs in the next couple of sentences because I know my distinguished colleagues, most of them, would disagree with what I am about to say.

I don't regard that as being quite the same question as to whether compulsory attendance at those ages is a good thing.

I suspect most of those people who do come alive do so for reasons generated within then. My own unorthodox view is perhaps philosophically it is a mistake. The people who are compelled to be in school are not very good learners and make it impossible for those there.

In Pennsylvania I have concluded there is not much that can be done about that. I think we should be working toward programs where people age 14 to 17 can spend part of their time in school and part in the community.

I think that means a less important rather than more important learning. Learning takes place not only then in school but in the community, in the home, in the factory and elsewhere.

I would like to see a situation developing over the next 10 or 20 years where schools and school libraries are just one source for motivating these young people.

Mr. PEYSER. I don't want to turn this subject into a main issue, but I think we have an obligation which I feel we cannot back away from because we have not found how to stimulate young people perhaps who don't want to be in school.

I think there are so many things in the offing and in creative library programs that I have sene that are by themselves an awakening of people at this age to want to learn.

"Go

To put them back out in the community as you say and say, ahead and do something else or we will try to get something going," I really think is giving up.

I won't pursue this as an argument at this point.

I am delighted to have your testimony and cetrainly support what we are talking about fully here on the libraries.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Mr. Lehman?

Mr. LEHMAN. I like to read and I like to see other people read. Once I wrote on the board, when I was a teacher, the quotation was, "Send me a man who reads" and the kid put a comma after the word "man" and put a question mark after the word "reads"-one of the girls in the class.

This is the kind of thing I think we are going to have to address ourselves to as a group and I certainly think that we can do this by working together for this kind of conference.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Thank you very much, again, Dr. Pittenger. We certainly do appreciate your coming here today.

Our next witness is Dr. Frederick Burkhardt, president of the American Council of Learned Societies and chairman of the National Commission on Libraries and Information Science.

Dr. Burkhardt has served with great attention to the concerns of that Commission and we are particularly pleased to welcome you back as an old friend of this subcommittee.

STATEMENT OF FREDERICK BURKHARDT, CHAIRMAN, NATIONAL COMMISSION ON LIBRARIES AND INFORMATION SCIENCE

Dr. BURKHARDT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is a pleasure to be here to testify on this important matter today.

I have submitted a 10-page statement which I will not read in its entirety this morning but I will read from it and then leave some time for questions.

[Statement referred to follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF FREDERICK BURKHardt, CHAIRMAN, NATIONAL COMMISSION ON LIBRARIES AND INFORMATION SCIENCES

My name is Frederick Burkhardt. I am President of the American Council of Learned Societies and Chairman of the National Commission on Libraries and Information Science. In my appearance before you today I represent the National Commission on Libraries and Information Science and its fifteen presidentially appointed members.

The Commission favors the White House Conference which is called for in House Joint Resolution 734 and 766. The Commission does so wholeheartedly and in the expectation of useful results. We favor this conference because it will reinforce and strengthen the work being undertaken by the National Commission on Libraries and Information Science and because a White House Couference will draw the attention of the American public to their libraries in a positive and productive way. A White House Conference will give an opportunity to thousands of individuals to express their needs and discuss their problems under conditions calculated to yield concrete improvements and solutions.

The National Commission on Libraries and Information Science is charged by law to provide the President and the Congress, as well as state and local governments, with advice and counsel that will bring about adequate library and information service for all. To fulfill this charge the Commission has been given the authority to conduct studies and surveys and to learn of the adequacies and deficiencies of current library and information service operations. The studies we have completed and the hearings we have held in Atlanta, Boston, Chicago and San Francisco convince us that the character and scope of the problems of obtaining information or other library services can most accurately be ascertained directly from the user of information. The Commission has listened with care to the statements of organizations and agencies within the information and library community. These associations, groups and organizations have given careful attention to the problems that beset them and the public they serve. However, a White House Conference on Library and Information Services would go further and deeper into the problems by offering an ideal opportunity for the needs of all users of information to become known and understood. Other White House conferences have discovered that the "grass-roots" viewpoint can wipe away outmoded practices and substitute a fresh outlook, including entirely new ways of dealing with current needs.

A White House Conference will provide the data and perspectives for planning on the national level as well as on the state and local level. he National Commission is in the early stages of the development of a new national program for library and information service which will be greatly helped by the discussions at the White House Conference. The Commission's program is based on the following assumptions:

First, that all citizens expect realistic and convenient access to library resources and information services in the United States for their self-enrichment and economic well-being.

Second, that the total information resource in the United States is a national resource which should be sustained and made available to the maximum degree possible in the public interest.