responsible for the higher educational legislation which will come before your committee shortly, and in which, may I say, full provision is made for the junior colleges in the form of a proposal that loans be made available for academic facilities. Junior colleges are eligible for college housing loans now.

The problem in this particular title-may I observe, Senator Yarborough, this is limited to application to sections 301 through 304 of title III, which was originally intended to aid secondary schools. The effect of the amendment which was included when the act was passed was to make it possible for junior colleges in 10 States to have aid, but in 40 States junior colleges get no aid.

Now, we simply feel that the main purpose of title III originally was to provide for the secondary school and to permit, in 10 States, funds to be channeled into junior colleges, means less money for secondary schools.

Now, this is a matter of equity. There are obviously other ways of correcting this. But this is our suggestion, as to a manner in which it is corrected.

I would hope you would not take this to mean we are not equally concerned with the problem of the junior college. It is just that our thought was that title III would

Senator YARBOROUGH. No, Dr. Flynt, I hope you will not misunderstand me. I did not challenge your concern for one moment. It is not a matter of concern. It is a matter of methods by which we reach these ends.

Would it not be merely a matter of definition in the laws for those 40 States to come under this if they wanted to. That is a matter of local and State definition, and they could qualify if they chose to change their definition.

Mr. FLYNT. If they chose to change the definition of secondary education, they could become eligible.

Senator YARBOROUGH. So this is an artificial exclusion to say these 10 come under it and the 40 do not. They come under it or not according to their local definition; do they not?

Mr. FLYNT. We do have a feeling, though, that the standards— the type of instruction in science in the postsecondary level is of very dif ferent characters and requires a different kind of standards in order to be administered under a different frame of reference. It would be much better in our judgment if this were treated as college-level subject matter.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Well, is it not a fact that the purpose of this section III was to develop the youth in the fields of science, mathematics, foreign languages, so that they would be able to make a contribution to the country in these areas as part of our defense effort? Is it not true that our experiences abroad have shown that we need further development, particularly in the fields of foreign languages and science and mathematics? Is it not a fact that that was one of the main purposes of this section 301 ?

Mr. FLYNT. Section 101-the purpose of the act so says.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Now, if we are giving that to strengthen the high schools, would it not be wise to continue that in the junior colleges, out of which so many of our schoolteachers come? I am talking about the community facilities-the college facilities bill, to build classrooms.

This is specialized aid, aid in certain subjects, where there has been a national lack and a national lag.

Now, would it not be wise to give this specialized aid to strengthen science, mathematics, and foreign languages in those junior colleges as well as in the high schools?

Mr. MCMURRIN. Perhaps we could recommend in keeping with this, Senator, that it be done for the first 2 years of 4-year colleges as well. There's a basic problem of a situation in equity there.

Senator YARBOROUGH. You would recommend generally?

Mr. MCMURRIN. I raise this question as to whether you feel this would be advisable.

Senator YARBOROUGH. If you recommend it, I would not oppose it. Senator MORSE. Senator Yarborough, have you finished for the

moment?

Senator YARBOROUGH. Yes, sir.

Senator MORSE. Commissioner, when this bill was first introduced by Senator Hill in the 85th Congress, S. 3187, and the Senator and I were both cosponsors. It is interesting to note that title V, Scientific Facilities, covered both secondary schools and schools of higher education. Subsequently, the aid to higher education was dropped, and it was limited to secondary schools. That is a bit of the history.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Yes. There were many tragic changes. We had scholarships in there. On the floor of the Senate, by two or three votes, we lost most of them. In conference they were turned into loans. We had more generous writeoffs for those loans, where only 50 percent now can be written off. I regret the changes, Senator Morse. Our bill that we originally introduced was whittled away and whittled away until we got

Senator MORSE. Yes. We had part A, which consists of State educational agencies, and part B which consists of institutions of higher education. I speak not in a partisan spirit but factually when I say that the then administration insisted that the assistance to institutions of higher education be dropped from the bill. That was one of the compromises which had to be made up here on the Hill. Now it is a question of what we are going to do to see to it under this administration, in keeping, I think, with our clear pledges to give the protection to all the branches of higher education.

Now, I want to say to the Commissioner and Dr. Flynt, as an old mediator, I think we are in trouble at this point-not in trouble that cannot be resolved.

The Senator from Texas says what he said this morning about his intention to insist on the protection of junior colleges, and I would join him in that-but when he takes this position, we have a little problem of negotiation, I think, outside of this hearing room so that we can enter into discussion of the difficulties ahead prior to a final vote on this bill in the committee.

I want to say that unless I am satisfied that the junior colleges and community colleges are going to be clearly protected in the higher education bill, I am not going to go along, may I say to the Senator from Texas, in striking the junior colleges out.

We are not in the position this year that we were before, when we had to agree to drop title II of the bill in order to get any bill at all. But I say we are not in that position. We are at least in a position. where we now have direct executive and legislative responsibility. As

far as this Senator is concerned, I am not going to agree to any compromises that were agreed to in the 2d session of the 85th Congress on the subject.

Senator YARBOROUGH. That is the reason, Mr. Chairman, I am hopeful where we had to recede on so many points before, that there will be no further recession. I am very much impressed by the Commissioner's suggestion that this be broadened to the first 2 years of all colleges.

Senator MORSE. Now, is the Senator from Texas ready to move on to the next witness?

Senator YARBOROUGH. Yes, sir. Mr. Chairman, may I ask one more question?

Senator MORSE. Certainly.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Mr. Commissioner, I am certain you must have given this consideration. Did you mention the subject of furnishing libraries in the bill, the possibility of the inclusion of library equipment?

Mr. MCMURRIN. We have been giving very careful consideration to this, Senator. But libraries are not included.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Is there any other bill proposed by the Department to help these college libraries, particularly the smaller colleges?

Mr. FLYNT. Our proposals for loans for academic facilities, Senator Yarborough, would include loans for libraries.

Senator YARBOROUGH. For libraries?

Mr. FLYNT. Yes, sir.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Thank you.

Senator MORSE. I want to thank both of you gentlemen. I want to commend you for the service you are rendering in your Department. This is a very helpful statement. It will receive very careful consideration by this committee.

Mr. MCMURRIN. Thank you very kindly, sir.

Senator MORSE. We are honored to have as our next witness the distinguished Senator from Massachusetts, Senator Smith. I think it is particularly interesting as I quickly scan his testimony-that he is going to testify on the problem of the community college.

Senator Smith, we are delighted to have you with us.

STATEMENT OF HON. BENJAMIN A. SMITH II, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS

Senator SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, I consider it an honor and a privilege to be able to appear before you and the subcommittee this morning to testify on behalf of my bill, S. 1562, to benefit the public community colleges. Let me say at the outset that I certainly appreciate the chairman's words and especially his words on his high esteem for the C students, having been one myself.

The 390 public community colleges in the United States are the fastest growing segment of higher education. They are expanding rapidly to fill the educational gap between the complex demands of our electronic age and good but limited facilities already available in our educational system.

The community colleges give college-level education to thousands of people whose interests and capabilities are not suitable for a 4-year college, who cannot afford to go away to college, or whose requirements are not satisfied by a liberal arts program.

They do so at less expense to the students who live at home, and to the taxpayers who are saved the cost of expensive dormitories, sports arenas, and other facilities required at residential colleges.

Limitations in the National Defense Education Act, however, have made it difficult for many of the public community colleges to make their fullest contribution to the country's educational needs. Under title III of the act, assistance is given in the teaching of science, mathematics, or modern foreign languages, to community colleges that are a part of the State secondary school system.

Under title VIII, assistance is provided for vocational education programs, provided that courses given are of less than college grade. This means that these courses cannot be counted as credit in transferring to a 4-year college if the student wants to pursue his or her education. Because of these limitations, some 120 public community colleges in 19 States serving approximately 135,000 students receive no support from the National Defense Education Act.

In the proposal made today by the Commissioner of Education, all community colleges would be taken out, as is done on page 7 of his proposed bill.

Now, these community colleges are in no way different from those now receiving the aid, except that they have been ruled by the attorneys general of their separate States to be institutions of higher education instead of extensions of the State secondary schools. They are ineligible for aid under title III, and will not ordinarily give courses of less than college grade to qualify under title VIII.

Educators and officials in these States feel that educational needs. in their area can best be served by colleges of their level, and not by colleges that offer only 2 more years of secondary schooling. This is particularly important in the field of vocational education where the need for support is the heaviest.

Title VIII specifies that its funds are for the training of highly skilled technicians. Yet it states that the programs receiving these funds must be of less than college grade. Courses at that level may be suitable for preliminary training, but specialists who want an education in electronics, electricity, and other similar subjects that a skilled technician needs in modern industry must get training of at least college caliber. The same criteria holds true in the field of science, languages, and mathematics. The standards of education in all these fields are rising steadily, and the institutions of higher education are best equipped to fill the country's demands in those areas.

This bill will help these public community colleges by providing them with funds for the acquisition of equipment for instruction in those areas under titles III and VIII from which they are now excluded.

To participate, each State must match the fund which it receives from the Federal Government on an equal basis, set up machinery to administer the program, and submit plans for the expenditure of the funds to the Commissioner of Education. In Massachusetts this will affect, by 1971, 15,000 pupils. Our State now has 1,200 pupils en

rolled in 5 public community colleges and will have over 3,000 students enrolled in 8 such colleges by this coming fall. They are part of the excellent program which the State has instituted to make higher education geographically accessible at a minimum cost to everyone in Massachusetts who can profit from it.

I might state that in Massachusetts we now have over 70 regular colleges, schools of higher education, but we still feel that these community colleges are a very necessary part of the educational system of our State and of the country.

My bill will eliminate the discrimination against these colleges which now exist in the National Defense Education Act. They and their counterparts throughout the Nation will be able to play an equal part in meeting the growing demands being placed on this country's institutions of higher education. It is education on this level which holds the key to much of the U.S. future. It will provide a greater source of trained and skilled employees for business and industry. It will meet the challenges of technological unemployment with training and retraining, and it will benefit the country as a whole by increasing the knowlege and skills of its young men and women.

Senator MORSE. Senator Smith, on behalf of the committee I want to thank you for making for this record such an able statement in defense of support of community colleges of America. It will be helpful to committee, as you have already heard by this discussion this morning that we will have the problem of considering whether or not your bill ought to be considered as an amendment to the major bill we are considering, or if it cannot be made an amendment to the higher education bill. Certainly one way or the other, the purpose of your bill in my judgment must be enacted into law here.

Senator SMITH. Thank you very much.

Senator YARBOROUGH. I think it is a very fine statement, Mr. Chairman. The chairman has already stated my opinion for me. I agree. I think this should be written into the law this year. Senator Smith has given us very fine leadership in this field.

Senator SMITH. Thank you very much.

Senator CASE. I join my colleagues in commending the statement which you have made, sir, and welcome you to the ranks of supporters of community colleges. I know you have been one in your other capacities. But I am glad to have someone beside us in the Senate working for a long time, who appreciates the seriousness of this matter, and I believe this year may be responsible for getting some action in the higher education bill. I am very happy to have your statement. Senator SMITH. Thank you very much, gentlemen.

Senator MORSE. The next witness will be Dr. Edgar Fuller, executive secretary of the Council of Chief State School Officers.

We are always glad to have you before us as a witness. You make a scholarly contribution to our record each time. You may proceed in your own way within the time limitation.