III matching funds for the purchase of teaching machines, audiovisual production equipment and materials, and film library equip ment. The U.S. Office of Education has ruled that these three types of equipment and materials may not be purchased with title III matching funds. My statement explains in detail why we believe it is important for schools to be able to purchase them. The inclusion of these items is directly in line with the basic intent of title III, and we most sincerely hope your subcommittee will consider our proposed amendment. Although we concur with the broad objectives of the administration in advocating better physical fitness for Americans generally, we question the inclusion of physical fitness equipment and materials in title III, a title of the act which would otherwise be devoted entirely to equipment for classroom and laboratory instruction. Senator YARBOROUGH. Mr. Chairman, may I interrupt at this point? Senator MORSE. Yes; you may. Senator YARBOROUGH. It is not for a question of this witness but for a request of the staff. After further consideration of the Commissioner's testimony I had intended to ask him how much of this money would be allocated to physical fitness training. I do not believe the bill, as introduced, specifies what portions will be allocated, but the staff have left or the Commissioner and his staff had left. Are any of the members of the Commission of Education's staff still in the room? If so, you might answer that question. STATEMENT OF JOHN R. LUDINGTON, U.S. OFFICE OF EDUCATION Mr. LUDINGTON. I am John R. Ludington, from the Office of Education. Senator YARBOROUGH. Could you tell us what allocations are proposed to be made of the funds under the National Defense Education Act to physical fitness? Mr. LUDINGTON. As the bill is now drafted, in its amended form, there are no allocations. There would be allotments to each State and each State will determine, through the applications received from local school districts, the amount that would be used for physical fitness, mathematics, science, or foreign language. In other words, the determination is really a State and local determination, and it has not been specified in the legislation. Senator YARBOROUGH. What could that money be spent for in physical fitness? The question has been raised here as to whether it includes baseball diamonds and football stadiums. Could it be used for that? Mr. LUDINGTON. We feel, pending these discussions, we would have to consult experts in the field, but at the moment we are considering the emphasis upon instructional equipment, which would be used in operating instruction in physical education and health education. Now, some items of equipment would be used outside of the confines of the school building, which would be eligible, but the building of baseball diamonds, swimming pools, running tracks, golf courses, we feel would be capital expenditures, and we have not yet decided upon which way the Congress might intend these funds be used. Senator YARBOROUGH. Thank you. If the witness will pardon my interruption of his testimony, Mr. Chairman, this occurs in the testimony of this witness, and I thought it might be helpful to get a clarification, if we could, on that point. Senator MORSE. Í am glad you interrupted to get this clarification. I think we are dealing with a very important problem that should cause us to consider possible amendments to the act. I think I know where some of the pressure is coming from to a physical education program in this bill, and the higher education bill over on the House side, where already there has been some indication that some will drop it out entirely. I think we have got to face up to it, very frankly, and make it perfectly clear, that is the types of program that we propose to support. This great fear has been brought out earlier this morning that some of your alumni associations and your chamber of commerce organizations, and so-called athletic groups are going to seek to turn a physical education program allowance into an athletic program allowance, and we have got to have that out. As far as I am concerned, I shall support the physical education program allowance, but I am not going to jeopardize the whole program by letting them turn it into an athletic program allowance. That is up to the schools to finance, themselves. It is up to the alumni to finance themselves. It is not up to the taxpayers of the United States, through any appropriation for this bill to be financing. But when it comes to this matter of the physical education program that teaches young people how to take care of their bodies, how to develop physical soundness, so to speak, I think that is a very important part of the defense program, and I will support that_with restrictions in here that draws this line of distinction that I am drawing. You may proceed. Mr. WHITE. Senator, I believe you have brought up an interesting point in the wording which I had not thought about before, frankly, and that is the program at present calls for physical fitness equipment and materials, and I believe that if it were changed to read "physical education" with the understanding that the intention for classroom instructional materials and equipment, primarily in the physical fit ness area, that this might very well take care of some of the objections that are arising. Senator MORSE. I always keep an open mind and nobody controls my thinking, but I am very much worried about what the danger is here. You are going to end up with a bill, the opposition to which is so great that you may have no physical education program at all, and that is the danger, simply because some of those who think they have got a chance here to get a lot of funds for an athletic program are bringing about certain pressures that are storming up or so I understand. Others have talked to me about early opposition to this whole section of the bill, and we will take it up in the committee and see if we cannot find that line of demarcation here by way of definition that will protect the objectives of a physical fitness program. Senator YARBOROUGH. Mr. Chairman, I am not opposed to a physical fitness program but, being practical and realistic, I hope I do know that this is left up to States, and the States have the school districts and the pressures that are put on the school superintendents. I can see the band mothers and the PTA and the athletic associations descending on a school superintendent in the city, and when you get pressure for a winning football team up against pressure for a library, I have never seen that library pressure prevail. Senator MORSE. I know just what you mean. I have been through it. Mr. WHITE. Thank you, sir. Title III has been a well-administered title. John Ludington, who is here in the room, has done a beautiful job of administering and interpreting it. We believe, though, that the inclusion of this provision in title III will cause difficulties in the State plan which have been worked out a at a great deal of trouble and expense, because physical fitness equipment is used for a different set of purposes. It does not fit into the same categories as the instructional equipment which is now available through title III representatives. We would, therefore, respectfully like to recommend that the physical fitness equipment provisions be deleted from title III and, if deemed important by your subcommittee, included in a separate bill, thus permitting the National Defense Education Act to continue without interruption its present essential programs for the improvement of instruction. We recommend that title III be extended to English. Also if it can be done without weakening the constitutionality of the loan provisions of the act, we would like to recommend its extension to include the social studies area, but we make this recommendation with the reservation that such extension should be made only if your subcommittee is reasonably assured that the constitutional issue would not thereby be made a serious factor. We believe there is an urgent need for the extension of title VII program to the local school level-to pass on to teachers throughout the country the improvements in instructional techniques which have resulted from title VII research and from other experimentation in the use of new educational media. We would therefore like to support the amendment to part B of title VII which is being proposed in written testimony filed by the Department of Audiovisual Instruction of the National Education Association, and which is appended to my statement as Attachment B. This would provide a recommended $5 million a year for grants to State departments of education for programs at the State level to disseminate information about new educational media, including such activities as workshops, demonstrations, sending out teams of consultants, publications, and similar activities designed to help teachers make better use of films, television, language laboratories, teaching machines, and similar devices and materials. A second part of this amendment would provide for institutes in new educational media, to be conducted by institutions of higher education, for the training of new educational media specialists and others. We would recommend an appropriation of at least $4 million a year for this latter part of the program. We believe this proposed amendment would make great contribution to education and that it is directly in line with the general purposes of title VII. We must sincerely urge this consideration by your subcommittee. We would further like to support the proposal of the American Library Association for a new title which would provide funds for school libraries. This amendment is needed and we most sincerely favor its adoption. Mr. Chairman, I very much appreciate your allowing me to appear before your committee. If there are any questions, I will be glad to do my best to answer them. Senator MORSE. Before I and my colleagues ask questions I want to express this point of view: I am disappointed that the Office of Education has found it necessary to rule out the three types of equipment which you have mentioned in your proposed amendment. I was of the opinion when we drafted this bill that we had in mind as one of its main objectives the improvement of the instructions by the use of the wide range of these new educational techniques and devices and media. So I am going to give the following instructions to counsel of the committee. I want counsel of the committee to sit down with the legal staff of the Office of Education and discuss this matter to the end of seeing if we cannot draft some regulations that will provide for this need of making use of not only existing but oncoming new techniques for instruction. I certainly think it would be too bad if we eliminated in this bill any coverage for these audio-visual instruction aids just as I agree with the Senator from Texas, who I take it now wants to include some aid to libraries. I do not know what a good school is without a good library, in fact, I hold to the old-fashioned point of view that an able student, if you turn him loose in a library he can educate himself to a remarkable extent. I wonder what Lincoln would say if he listened in on the suggestion that we are going to be building up facilities for the access to books. Senator? Senator CLARK. I certainly share the chairman's view. All of the these things must be matters of priority. Though myself, at the risk of creating a very adverse reaction, I think it is a little bit more important to have a library than a football field. Senator MORSE. I think you had better have all of the support you need for the clarification of this act in providing that protection. We have already made our views pretty clear, I think, to the Office of Education. In fact, I will from time to time. Those of you who sit through my hearings on S. 1021 know I conducted a seminar. The press was a little bored with it, but the students were not. tee. Senator CLARK. The students included the members of the commit Senator MORSE. And I will make the staff of the Office of Education members of my class, and their next assignment, as I say, is to prepare for us a memorandum to the members of the committee to set forth some of their views and suggestions as to how we are going to set forth a set of recommendations within the bill that will protect the taxpayers of this country in respect to the expenditures of these funds. Now, it is easy to say that here we will leave it up to the States. This is not a general education bill. This is not the bill based upon the edu cation philosophy of S. 1021, but this is a bill for special purposes that we all recognize are in the national interest and, for want of better term, we have called it National-Defense purposes. Well, let me say that the taxpayers of the country, as a whole, have a right to look to the Congress to see to it that there is written into the legislation the safeguards and protections to see to it that the money goes for the purpose of the bill. We have been using as an example this morning the whole matter of the difference between money for athletics and money for physical fitness which are separate and distinct objectives. As Senator Clark said, in language that everybody can understand, there is a great difference between money for football teams and money for libraries. And I do think you people down in the Office of Education are going to have to give some thought about this matter and, therefore, your first term paper, as far as this seminar is concerned, is to prepare for us a brief of suggestions and recommendations on how you think we might write some safeguards into this bill that will guarantee the carrying out of its objectives. Thank you very much, Mr. White. Mr. WHITE. Thank you, sir. Senator MORSE. Senator Yarborough? Senator CASE. No questions. Senator MORSE. Is there any other scheduled witness here? Will you come forward please? Will you give your name and association to the reporter? STATEMENT OF J. GRAHAM SULLIVAN, CHIEF, BUREAU OF NATIONAL DEFENSE EDUCATION ACT ADMINISTRATION, CALIFORNIA STATE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION Mr. SULLIVAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (The prepared statement of J. Graham Sullivan follows:) PREPARED STATEMENT OF J. GRAHAM SULLIVAN, CHIEF, BUREAU OF NATIONAL DEFENSE EDUCATION ACT ADMINISTRATION Chairman Morse and members of the Senate Educational Subcommittee, first, I want to express our appreciation for the invitation to appear at this hearing in support of S. 1726, National Defense Education Act Amendments of 1961. Before referring specifically to the bill itself, I want to make two brief statements with reference to our position in California about Federal aid. First, it is our judgment that there should not be any question of general aid versus special-purpose aid, such as the National Defense Education Act, for each serves a different purpose-general aid to meet the overall increased costs of education, and special purpose aid to stimulate research, experimentation, program evaluation, and development. Both are important to the improvement of the quality of instruction. Second, we in California, from our experience with the National Defense Education Act, the various programs of vocational education, and others, do not have fear of Federal control. It is true that Congress in any legislation providing Federal funds to States, and the U.S. Office of Education in administering programs outlined in the legislation, must set certain guidelines, establish certain minimum standards to be met, and ask for certain reporting on funds and activities. This, however, need not be control. With reference to Senate bill 1726, the amendments contained therein appear to us in most instances to have eliminated those provisions of the act which have 69660-61- -11 |