FROM THE FLOOR. How full are the houses?

Mr. DICKINSON. We are filled up. I have 250 standing in line, and I have the reservation to build 200 more units if you can get your city council to budget it.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Our next witness is Dr. Leonard Breen, Department of Sociology, Purdue University, Lafayette, Ind.

STATEMENT OF DR. LEONARD BREEN, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF SOCIOLOGY, PURDUE UNIVERSITY, LAFAYETTE, IND.

Dr. BREEN. For the record, my name is Leonard Breen. I am an associate professor of sociology at Purdue, and also coordinator of research of gerontology.

I regret very much I don't have a prepared statement. Having learned of the hearings only very recently, I have only had opportunity to review the pending bill, and thought that I might be of greatest assistance by suggesting some of those things that underlie the development of bills of this kind. Others have said already that they speak only for themselves. Being a college professor, I say right off the bat, I don't speak for myself, but for all the people that I have been in touch with when I have carried on research, with students whom I am in contact with all the time.

As we think about the need for coordinated activities at the Federal level, we think of those things toward which these activities are directed, as I am sure you do, too, in the attempt to develop those bills which are most appropriate to the problems. Aging we recognize as a physiological fact, but it has very important social consequences, and these social consequences come to us for a variety of reasons, partly because of the increasing expectation of life, the increasing automation, therefore decreasing work opportunities; partly because of the rapidly expanding cities.

Now, this latter notion I think is especially important and is not often considered enough. With cities expanding as rapidly as they are, with housing units growing smaller, with the kind of mesocity developing that we have in our country, people lose their sense of identification, and this becomes increasingly important for older people because what happens with this kind of change is that people no longer count in our society for what they can do, but only in terms of the physical work that they do, that they in fact carry on.

The problem is that at one time people counted for what they were, what they were able to do, that which they carried with them. Now they count for the things they do every day. With work being removed is an important area of expression for older people. They no longer count. This is one of the realities. To talk about the great potential of older persons is very important, but we must, at the same time, recognize that we have not, for a long time now, taken advantage of that potential, nor do we show any evidence at the moment of trying to take advantage of it.

The very fact we have to argue about a feeling of worth for older people, about developing the climate in which they have a place and sense of worth is an obvious recognition that this does not exist now and therefore we need to do something about it.

Well, we always make judgments about what older people are like, and older people respond to these judgments. Therefore, one of the

important components of the aging itself is simply the social setting within which older people find themselves. That is the expression of expectations by the people at large and their response to those expectations.

The Federal Government, in a great variety of ways, has tried to do something about this. Obviously the most important effort was the White House Conference. I was privileged to be a part of that Conference as a consultant and participate at the Conference itself. A great many important things came out of that Conference which went beyond the mere alerting of people in the country to some of the problems that exist; and some of the things that went on that were especially important were the kinds of things toward which this bill is focused. One of the most important problems that we social scientists have recognized is that as these matters of social expectations and inability of persons to perform as they would like to perform in our society; that is, older persons, as these things become more and more obvious, more and more important, the social sciences have been able to make a greater contribution to understanding those things and there, with interested persons, do something about it.

At the Federal level right now, virtually all of the research interest was expressed; however, not through any of the concerns of the social sciences, but only through the health fields. The social sciences come into use only when they have a health overtone, so that the economists, the psychologists, the sociologists are called into play and into use only when they can demonstrate that what they are doing has relevance for the health needs of persons.

What I recognize in the research that I have done, and found to be especially true in one project we carried out, a community study here in Columbus, Ind., was that while the health needs are basic, it's the social place in which older persons find themselves that needs to be understood and dealt with more and more. We then look for an opportunity for doing this at the Federal level. One is a committee on aging. I must say that this bill is one of the most carefully thought through pieces that I have seen. It takes into account a great variety of problems in a systematic manner, but I must say quite candidly that I am no expert in the development of the mechanical means for the alleviation of social ills in public, and therefore, I don't know if the commission form is the best form to pursue. What I do know, however, and I know this very definitely, is that coordination is needed. There are a great variety of activities going on through HEW, through the Department of Labor; they have certain programs of this kind in a great variety of places. Communities have become aware of this, like was true in the community of Columbus; they turned to the Federal Government for some assistance, guidance, and help, and yet they don't know where to turn, and there is nobody in Federal Government that I have ever found who knew about all the programs going on.

It's extremely complex. It's large. The people in one department don't necessarily know what is going on in another, even when developed, and they don't know about this when this is in the process of formulating. There needs to be some kind of clearing agency so we can refer persons who have problems to those agencies that can best be of assistance to them.

The Special Staff on Aging has tried to do that. In my personal expecience, the Special Staff on Aging has done an admirable job. They have tried with limited resources to deal with very broad kinds of problems and, for the most part, have done this successfully. They have, however, been plagued with problems of change in personnel, limited resources that are so limited that make it impossible to pursue their interest. With their recent expansion of staff, they show some promise of being able to carry on more field service, but they themselves cannot perform this coordinating function at the moment because of all the things going on. The Federal Council might have been of assistance if they were more closely tied to the Federal staff. Some device has to be found for the development of what you call in this bill an Advisory Council tied to the operating group. This Advisory Council can be the medium for accumulating the understandings of all of the participating departments, and then have the operating agency itself carry out the interests of these various departments.

In general, I would guess that there would be a great danger in overorganizing at the Federal level as would be true at any level. This is partly because of this notion that I suggested at the outset that the problems of older persons come to them as a virtue of the community setting in which they find themselves. The more we emphasize the problem aspect, the more likely it is that we will continue to segregate the aged. Some way we have to devise a method for bringing to the attention of those who want to work in the field, in the community; those opportunities that are available through Federal organizations, and, at the same time, permit the local instrumentality to continue to function in an intelligent way so we don't segregate further those older persons we have already segregated. I recognize in many communities in South Bend it is necessary to have public housing for older persons; yet what we have learned in public housing, it is relatively undesirable to set them apart, and this we continue to do. The thing that distresses me even more than the setting apart of older persons in public housing is the extent to which, in private planned communities like Park Forest, Ill., New Whitland, Ind., we are carrying out this program of segregation even further than we are in public housing. New Whitland, Ind., has less than 1 percent of its population over 65. One wonders then what conception of older persons can a young person have when he grows up in this; the social pressures are such to shape their understandings this way, to shape the understandings of older people themselves. The Federal assistance that might bring this to the attention of the planner is available, but uncoordinated. Because it is uncoordinated, it frequently cannot be found.

This, I submit, is a very general statement, but one which is concerned with the opportunities that exist today in the Federal Government, the coordination of these activities and the implementation of these in such a way as to incorporate the older person into the life of the community rather than separate him from it.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Thank you very much. Mr. O'Hara?

Mr. O'HARA. Dr. Breen, several proposals have been made to the Congress with regard to amendments of the Vocational Educational Act, and amendments to the program dealing with university extension services to provide opportunities for older persons to partici

pate more fully in training and educational matters that may not be directly related to full-time employment. I would gather from your testimony that you feel that greater effort and better coordinated effort in this regard could be helpful.

Dr. BREEN. I must say, I am inbenevolent about that. I don't see in the long run how our economy can benefit by the inclusion of a large number of older persons in the work force. We are now losing approximately a million and a quarter jobs a year through automation. At the same time, fortunately, through expansion, we are increasing almost that same amount, about a million and a quarter jobs a year, but this is at a time when our labor force is growing. The one thing we know is that our labor force is going to continue to grow. I think it's unfortunate that we stressed so heavily the contribution that a person can make only through remunerative employment. It seems to me there are a great many places where this might be possibly done in other ways. For instance, I understand in the Senior Citizens Act of 1962 which is currently being considered, there is an opportunity created within which older persons can contribute to communities in a variety of ways without being involved in a situation of remunerative employment. It seems to me this is the kind of thing that the Federal Government is uniquely able to do.

For instance, we have a great program of national parks, we have a great many natural resources in our society that have lain dormant. Our Spring Mill State Park here in Indiana is one example of this. At Spring Mill, we have an active mill which tries to recreate a time of the past. When I visited there last, I thought to myself wouldn't it have been wonderful if we could have right in this place created a community of older persons who have been involved in recounting of the past in such a way as to bring to the attention of young people who had come there the heritage of the past.

Now, there is no reason why this couldn't be done throughout our national park system and many other places in our national monuments as well where the heritage is what we are trying to preserve. Older persons represent the human heritage. What more obvious thing to do than to try to tie the human heritage to the physical heritage and, in this way, make a place for these older persons. By the same token, I think there are many persons who are not yet 65 but thought as being older who need to go on working. A man of 45 today who loses his job is in tough shape. This man ought to have the opportunity to be retrained to carry on in the society which he has contributed so much already, to carry on effectively. He can do this by this kind of vocational rehabilitation program.

Another way this might be done is through one of the programs established in this 1014 bill, namely through the instrument of direct grants to States, and I must say I would like very much to see this implemented by not having the grants made to existing health and welfare agencies as is so often the case, but organized directly through the Governor's offices, through the organized committees or commissions of the States.

Mr. O'HARA. Dr. Breen, I perhaps didn't make myself too clear. The proposals to which I was referring had to do with broadening the Vocational Education Act so that we permitted vocational training of older persons when it didn't lead to remunerative employment but led

to some other activity that would make his life more meaningful. And to the same point, the broadening of the provisions with regard to the State University's extension services to permit older persons to participate more fully, not necessarily with the objective of obtaining a full-time job of some sort, but to give them some sort of an extension of their growth as individuals and permit them to participate in things perhaps they have never done.

Dr. BREEN. Yes. I am sorry. I misunderstood your question then. This is the kind of thing we ought to be doing. We need to help develop those skills which will make it possible for the older person to function more effectively in the community. One of the real problems we are faced with is a direct conflict of interests in many areas between younger and older persons. This is something you can't avoid. Persons of different generations grow up with different values. Older persons find they are suddenly tossed to the doorstep of a society they have not grown up with.

To the extent we can provide those educational opportunities to help them adapt to this changing society, to implement change in the community, I think this is one of the important things that American colleges and universities can do, to get out into the community and work with these people.

Mr. O'HARA. I thank you for the help you have given me in understanding some of these problems. I agree with you that often we place too much emphasis on the tangible aspects of these problems, such as income, what is the average income and what should it be, and medical care, and we don't look at the situation enough probably as an overall social problem. I think you have helped with your contribution today.

Mr. BRADEMAS. I have just one question, Dr. Breen.

Obviously there has grown up in the last few years in the United States this intense interest in the problems of aged and aging. Do we have enough people, I take it that's a rhetorical question, how do we get more trained personnel in the field of gerontology and related fields? That hasn't anything to do with any legislation, particularly, but you are an expert in this field and I wondered what your feeling is.

Dr. BREEN. I think it has a great deal to do with the legislation, as a matter of fact. I think it has a great deal to do with every phase of it. We have wrestled with this for a very long time. Some have tried to do it by developing institutes of gerontology. Purdue University has tried to do this by developing a program within our own department of sociology in the training of persons with a special skill in sociology, but with an understanding in the course in the problems of aging. As an example, one of our good students received a Ph. D. in sociology, went on to the Harvard Medical School, is this June going to get his masters in public health degree, and is going on to be an important component in the Cornell system of their study of occupational retirement, studying the relationship between the social aspects of society and the health aspect. This man will be trained to do this. It's unfortunate I have to point out this one person and say this is an unusual case. We try to develop persons who are able to do these kind of things, who can work with older people.

We have at Purdue a health fellowship program where we train only about three a year. Now, this is much less than a drop in the