Mr. KENT. Let me say, Mrs. Hansen, I think your points are very well taken. I, before coming to the Federal Government, headed a program for aging in the State of Connecticut, and we developed criteria manual of standards for housing for older people, and also adapted it in terms of the individual houses. One of the mistakes that we made initially on this, we consulted with architects, and we consulted with housing officials, but we forgot to consult with the homemaker, and they took us to task, and gave us some very helpful hints on this.

Let me say that there are many problems like this, and several agencies in the Federal Government are working, trying to do just what you have suggested. The special staff on aging has put out this series of case studies, in which we have taken various aspects of aging, such as activities center, voluntary service, housing, nursing home standards, and these are very practical how-to-do-it things which we distribute to people working in the field.

There are criteria for housing that have been drawn up by the Housing and Home Financing Agency. The Federal Council on Aging, for example, in trying to disseminate this kind of information, last fall invited the distinguished Swedish architect, Bo Boustedt, to come to America, talk to people in Washington. He brought slides about some of the developments in Sweden, which have pioneered many in aspects of housing.

Mrs. HANSEN. There are many aged who feel they are being shut out. We slant our magazines, we slant everything toward youth, and it is a shutting out, and if we made a genuine attempt in America to make everyone part of this living, that is one of the essential psychological problems underneath, and that has been my thinking, that some of these problems are handled by the type of public relations that is done for the aged, and not make them feel a group set apart, but part of America.

Mr. KENT. We are in complete agreement with you, Mrs. Hansen. One of the things that we have tried to do in our consultations with communities is to stress the fact that we should not segregate our older people. They want to be integrated into American life.

Mrs. HANSEN. Any more than you would men and women.

Mr. KENT. And I must say that is one of the reasons why we have preferred a functional approach to dealing with the aged, rather than a strictly clientele approach, in which we have dealt with health services in terms of going across the board, not just health services for older people, but good health services for us all, recreational opportunities for us all. This is part and parcel of our whole approach. Mrs. HANSEN. Thank you, very much.

Mr. COHEN. Mrs. Hansen, in my work in this field, may I say the most successful people who are working in the State and local commissions in this area are women? As I have just reviewed in my mind the people whom I automatically think of who are doing a very outstanding job, there are quite a number of them who are women in States and localities. I think that through our proposal we will draw out more of that kind of people in the local community. I am thinking in my own community, where there is a very energetic woman interested in housing and the aged. She was telling me the other day when I was back in Michigan how if there were some financial help

that would enable her to get other people in the community together to have a project, she could improve the housing conditions in that community immensely.

She has the dedication, she has the energy, she has had training as a teacher and as a social worker previous to her marriage, and is willing to work long hours.

I think these local kinds of projects hat we are talking about would bring out that kind of leadership all over the country.

Mrs. HANSEN. That is the thing that needs to be done.

Mr. KENT. May I add, interrupt you, Mr. Secretary, to indicate that we have a number of women on our staff and among our regional representatives. For example, we have in each of the nine regions of the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, a regional representative on aging. Three of our most effective workers are distinguished ladies.

Mrs. HANSEN Very good.

Mr. KENT. On our advisory committee, we have a complement that must run to 40 percent, and on the special staff on aging, I am being accused of being partisan insofar as the large number of ladies that we have hired.

Mrs. HANSEN. I am delighted to hear it. Thank you so much.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BAILEY. The Chair would like to say we appreciate very much your straightforward, factual report, Dr. Cohen, and we know of your extraordinary efforts in the Department to make improvements in the program of the aged and aging.

I have some other questions here which I should mention. What reaction have you to the bill we have in the committee at the present time, to enlarge the activities of the land-grant colleges? Would you mind commenting on that?

Mr. COHEN. Enlarge the activities of the land-grant colleges? I

am not

Mr. KENT. The university extension.

Mr. COHEN. The university extension bill.

Mr. BAILEY. Yes, that is what it is.

Mr. COHEN. Well, let me put it this way: I think the university extension proposal is an extremely important one I think it is one that has great possibilities, not merely for older people, but I mean for all kinds of activities that are of concern to us. I would hope that I will put it this way-we now have a group studying that legislation very intensively, and I would hope that it would have a very high priority in the next Congress for enactment.

Mr. BAILEY. Well, what is the necessity for its being delayed over to the next Congress? It is a matter up for consideration of the full committee at the present time?

Mr. COHEN. Well, I think I am a little sensitized to the amount of education legislation already pending before your committee, and I guess I did not want to complicate your calendar any more than it already is, but I would say as far as the objectives are concerned, that legislation has very great merit.

Mr. BAILEY. You would get training through extensions. You could get training, there, high-caliber training through extension courses?

Mr. COHEN. Yes.

Mr. BAILEY. And I only mention it because that training could very well go to some of your elderly people, too.

Mr. COHEN. Yes, and it could go for kinds of programs in the local communities that produce the kinds of personnel we are talking about. Extension service could well handle the kinds of classes, and do the kinds of discussions in the local community on problems of aging and the training of personnel that we are concerned with here.

Mr. KENT. Might I add a comment on that, Mr. Secretary?

If your university extension bill were to pass, I think it would underscore the need for additional training at the university level. One of the objectives of university extension would be, for example, offering courses in retirement preparation in local communities throughout the Nation, and this would necessitate training extension workers in gerontology.

Mr. BAILEY. It would tie it in with your problem of the aged and elderly people?

Mr. KENT. Yes, sir.

Mr. BAILEY. And I think there is a great possibility there, interest in the legislation?

Mr. BRADEMAS. Mr. Chairman, might I ask if any breakdown, if any division has been contemplated between money for projects and money for training of personnel, in your bill?

Mr. KENT. We have not done that yet, Congressman Brademas. It is our feeling that we are going to have to work that division out as we go along in view of the demand and our experience.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Thank you.

Mr. BAILEY. Off the record.

(Off the record.)

Mr. ELLSWORTH. I just have one question I wanted to ask, and that has to do with the grants which are offered in planning and project grants. The evidence that we had indicated pretty strongly that there was a lot of stimulation from the grants to the States during the White House Conference, that this stimulated a lot of State activity, which has kind of tailed off in some States. I was wondering if it would not-if this happened before, that this type of grant stimulated sc much activity in getting down to the local community-that this would not do it again if there were specific planning grants.

Mr. COHEN. For the State commissions, you are talking about?
Mr. ELLSWORTH. Yes.

Mr. COHEN. Well, I think our question that we are still pondering over, and do not have an answer to it, is why was that? With that stimulation, money and staff, why did it die off? In other words, it was fine while the money and the stimulation of the White House Conference accentuated it, but then when they were left back on their own, you would have then thought that they could carry forward— Mr. BAILEY. One could draw the conclusion it was lack of activity on the part of the Department?

Mr. COHEN. Well, no

Mr. BAILEY. Over the past several years.

Mr. COHEN. Well, perhaps previously, but I think we are talking about here where they have been activated, and where they do a significant role, and then they decline.

Our theory now would be to try to activate at the local level the support which would maybe then sustain more continuous State action.

Now I do not know whether that is correct, but I would say that that is the idea we would go on. If from our experience with projects we could come back later and if it seemed like grants for State operation were necessary, we could propose them.

Now again, as Mr. Brademas said from the juvenile delinquency field, we had that same problem. We decided in the legislation, not to spend available money on giving the money for support of administrative organization at the State level. It may well be that after the 3 years of the juvenile delinquency, with all this local activity, Congress might decide to do it. I think we are faced with somewhat that same kind of question here, I know from my own experience in Michigan, unless you have and as Mrs. Hansen said-a considerable body of local community support, the State activity, by itself, does not necessarily get anywhere.

The State legislators aren't very much impressed, they do not see it in their districts, they do not see the need for giving an appropriation for staff, and pretty soon the whole thing caves in.

There may well be Federal money, and there may be Federal support, and maybe the special staff is stimulating. For instance, the special staff went out to Michigan several times in the previous administration, but it did not have too consequential an effect, Mr. Ellsworth.

Mr. ELLSWORTH. Well, just one comment. The reason I asked the question was some of the State commission indicated that part of the breakdown was due to the fact that they were bypassed and programs were not coordinated between the State commission and the Federal Government, and that is why I wondered if now getting away further from the cooperation of the State, if this is going to accentuate this?

Mr. COHEN. Yes; but now you are touching on the heart of the difficulty that with the existence of grants from the Public Health Service, from the Social Service Administration, from the Office of Vocational Rehabilitation, they do not go to these State commissions on aging, they go to their counterparts in the States. These State commissions on aging then have a vast problem in their not being very effective in coordinating these existing Federal-State programs which Congress has authorized, and they do have a big difficulty.

In this proposal we have made to you, we would hope the project grants would be made for areas which do not overlap the areas of the existing programs, but really fill in the gaps, or involve coordination, or joint performance of service. I think you are going to find that complaint on the part of the State commissions to be a perennial one, because they are not operating units of these on-going basic programs, and I do not see how they could be.

Mr. ELLSWORTH. Well, their complaint is that this is why they cannot stimulate programs, because they are bypassed, and on the other hand, you recommend setting up the State commission so it does

not

Mr. COHEN. It will be an increasingly difficult task for them as the programs develop and are amplified, between the Federal agency and the State agency, for them to do an effective coordination job, but we feel at this time without resolving that long-run question, there could be a filling in of the gaps and a stimulating of community action. Now maybe in some future year, based on our present studies, maybe next year or the year after, we would come back and could suggest to you some other areas in which the Federal Government

could take a role. For instance, one of the areas that we are studying is that whole question of senior citizen centers; I think there is an area where no one in any existing programs has a responsibility, and I think we could at some time come back to you and try to define a role in that area.

I think there is an area where both we and State agencies could do something that is not in conflict with existing programs in individual departments.

Mr. BAILEY. Mr. McCord has a question.

Mr. McCORD. Mr. Secretary, in relation to the bill that has been suggested, I wonder if perhaps between now and whatever the date a week from Monday might be, you or Dr. Kent could supply to the committee somewhat more detailed description of how you would administer these grants proposed in the legislation. This subcommittee probably will not get into the executive session next week, because of the heavy full committee schedule, but that would be helpful to the subcommittee, if they approve any or all portions of your legislation, to justify it.

Mr. COHEN. We would be very glad to, Mr. McCord.

We would be very happy to submit that statement. (The above-mentioned material follows:)

POLICIES AND PROCEDURES FOR ADMINISTERING GRANTS UNDER THE PROPOSED SENIOR CITIZENS ACT OF 1962

GENERAL CONSIDERATIONS

(1) The grants under consideration are for: (a) research, demonstration, and evaluation and (b) for training of professional and technical personnel. (2) The purposes of the grants are to promote action-through States, organizations, and communities-designed to improve the well-being of our older population. It is anticipated that they would add to our knowledge of aging and of older persons, that they would increase the supply of professional and technical personnel qualified to serve older people, and that they would result in the immediate development of pilot and demonstration action programs for older people throughout the country.

(3) Grants made under this act would be aimed at filling training, research, and program needs not met by existing grant programs. Careful coordination with existing grant programs of the Department would insure against duplication and undesirable overlap.

NATURE OF PROJECTS TO BE SUPPORTED

The following illustrations will indicate the types of projects needed and the objects for which it is anticipated grants would be requested and made: Demonstration grants

Examples of demonstration projects needed and for which grants would be given are:

(1) The development of methods of planning and coordinating State programs in aging and of providing guidance and assistance to communities.