of the aging, the way matters are being handled now, the need for improvement. It has been close to a direct criticism of at least two Cabinet officers, and the way they conduct their departments.

And I would think, at the very least, that we ought to be given an opportunity to explore with some of these expert witnesses—I am willing to consider these are all expert witnesses-without having the gavel rapped.

Today is a day where there is no legislative business, and I am certainly not trying to filibuster in any way, but I see no reason why we should be under such compulsion to prevent a witness even from answering a question. And I try not to impose on anybody's time. either the witness' or the committee's, but I think this matter is of considerable importance. And unless we give the witnesses the courtesy both to state their case and to answer questions, it seems to me we might just as well have them submit statements or not bother to even make inquiry of others, if we know the answers before we begin.

regret very much the necessity of saying such a thing, but I see no reason why we should be under such a compulsion to move on. If there are some witnesses who have to catch planes, they can come to the top of the list, as far as I am concerned. But I would assume that perhaps Mr. Meyer could come back tomorrow, or some other day, and discuss some of these questions with me individually, if we are under such a drive to complete this list of 10 or 12 witnesses in a couple of hours.

Mr. BAILEY. The Chair will be glad to inform the gentleman from New Jersey I will stay with him all day if he will just stay here.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I think it is a very unwise procedure, to either oblige you or to oblige me, Mr. Chairman, to stay here all day. It seems to me there is no necessity for us to conclude hearings.

I would hope we are not going to conclude hearings before we hear what might be called the other side of the case. Just what do existing governmental agencies who are interested in the problems of the aging feel about establishing another bureaucratic layer on top of the existing ones to coordinate and organize and direct and control and whatever else they are supposed to do?

I think if we are going to have a full airing of this program, we ought to have a full airing.

Mr. BAILEY. I might inform the gentleman from New Jersey that the Department, as of the present moment, has not decided to testify. They have been invited.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. Chairman, I think we have a responsibility to inquire why it is that the Department is unable to testify. At the very least, it seems to me, we should have a report from the departments on these various bills, either pro or con. If they are un able to come up with a position, I think it is up to us to find out just what it is that paralyzes them from even giving a report or commenting on the advantages or disadvantages of the various proposals that we have before us.

I think it would be neglecting our duty. There is no way we can do any_mindreading on this subject, unless we hear from them directly. So I would strongly urge that before we conclude our hearings for good, we have some representatives from the Government departments concerned.

Mr. BAILEY. You may proceed, now.

Mr. MEYER. Thank you, sir.

A third point involved in a future development of services for older people at this time relates to the degree and nature of the need for experiment and demonstration. As the council collects reports of programs from around the country, it seems evident that many of the programs most needed at this time by the majority of older people have already been demonstrated to a rather remarkable degree.

For example, it is obvious that as health services for older people are increased, whatever the method of financing them may be, there will be a greatly expanded need for homemaker service.

There are many examples of homemaker service under both voluntary and governmental auspices, through agencies of both health and social welfare. There are examples of good recruitment, methods of training, and supervision.

The need, as we see it, is not so much for more demonstration, but for an effective means of disseminating knowledge already available about homemaker service, and providing the machinery for establishing this service in all communities in some proportion to the developing need. The same situation applies in greater or less degree to other services such as activity centers for older people, foster home care, friendly visiting, and so forth.

The council has characterized the development of services for older people during the past 10 years as one of spotty experimentation, The more glamorous period of conferences and demonstration projects must be succeeded by a serious effort to make those services most needed and desired by older people generally available to them. This is the great task, as we see it, for the decade ahead.

In order to make these services available, however, an intensive and creative job must be undertaken in the training of personnel. It is in this area where the greatest stimulation and breaking through of certain traditional academic procedures must take place. This will require the most imaginative thinking and intensive effort on the part of practitioners in the field, as well as educational leaders, to meet the demands for service immediately ahead.

I do not mean to imply that all the necessary experimentation and research has taken place, but rather to stress the importance of seeing that grants for such purposes be determined by priority of the need for new information. There is very little experience, for example, in providing guardianship and protective services for older people. The fourth, and last point I wish to make is the need for a service to older people which is not mentioned in the bill, nor so far as I know, otherwise provided for.

This is pamphlet material directed to older people and their families giving practical suggestions as to how they can better utilize the knowledge already available through research and experimentation. To produce material in the quantity needed can be done only by a governmental body. As an example of this kind of service, the booklets of the Children's Bureau may be cited as examples. I believe that the series giving suggestions to parents about how to deal with children at various ages is a Government Printing Office "bestseller." I believe a similar series addressed to adult children concerning their aging parents would be perhaps equally accepted. Fur

thermore, a series addressed to middle aged and elderly people on health, safety, personal and family relationships, et cetera, would do much to improve the well-being of the current and oncoming generations of elderly people.

In conclusion, I would like to point out that the biggest job ahead for all of us, Government and voluntary agencies and private citizens, is to change public attitudes about old age. Most elderly people can be active, productive, useful citizens, if a favorable community climate is provided. This cannot be legislated, nor purchased. It will require a conscious widespread program of sound public information on the part of government and voluntary agencies at National, State, and local levels.

The National Council on the Aging pledges its wholehearted cooperation in this and other endeavors with whatever instruments the Federal Government may devise for meeting governmental responsibility in the field of aging. We would hope that a pattern of relationship between such a governmental agency and the council might be a model of effective cooperation in behalf of older people. Thank you.

Mr. BAILEY. Mrs. Hansen?

Mrs. HANSEN. I am sorry I was late.

On page 10 you referred to the homemaker services that are available, both voluntary and governmental. Is it not true that these are far more available in cities than they are in rural and small town areas?

Mr. MEYER. Yes, that is true; and they are available only in a limited number of cities, as well.

The purpose of bringing this example in was to indicate that we cannot fragmentize a program and merely look at one phase of the program without recognizing that that may well introduce other problems that are further away from home base, so to speak.

In other words, if you develop a good medical program for the aging and take them out of the hospitals sooner and bring them into the homes, we must recognize that this ancillary service of homemakers is a desirable and necessary type of service. And we are asking here that should a commission be established, they recognize the importance of this kind of study that has already been made in these particular communities, and that it is not necessary to make studies in every community across the country, but rather do what is done in every kind of industrial research and medical research, and that is take advantage of the research and development that has been done before, and if it is valid and if it is good, to take advantage of that particular program, rather than each community making its own study.

And we are asking here that if funds are going to be made available to communities, they be made available to implement well-proven programs, rather than for each one to study his own program. And we are not asking completely the denial of research and development; but let us take advantage of the great knowledge that has already been established over the past 10 years.

Mrs. HANSEN. Do you visualize a grant program, then, to be largely a training program? Using the best research we have at the present

time and proceeding to train people for the activities in which they are needed?

Mr. MEYER. That is a very important phase. That is a great lack, that we now recognize, in all fields of the aging. That is, trained personnel to carry on the demonstratedly well-designed programs. Mr. BAILEY. Mr. Frelinghuysen?

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to comment that I regret that Mr. Meyer's discussion with me had to be interrupted and that time does not permit us to extend our deliberations and questions with respect to the testimony.

I would like to say that I found this very provocative, very practical, and I admire the emphasis on the voluntary approach. And I just hope that as we develop a response to the legislation before us, we will come up with something which is going to encourage voluntary agencies, such as yours, to get the job done even better than they are doing it today. And I think that the reason that we have as many services of a practical kind as we have is because of men and women such as in your outfit.

I have plenty of questions I would like to ask, but I will restrain myself until perhaps the next witness comes along.

Mr. MEYER. May I make myself available between now and any time you are available?

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I am quite serious. I would like to discuss this at greater length, and I regret we cannot do it for the record, because I am sure what you have to say would be of interest to other individuals than just one member of this subcommittee.

Mr. MEYER. Thank you, sir.

Mr. BAILEY. Mr. Meyer, the Chair would like to commend you for your individual work, and that of the council that you represent, along with your secretary. You are making a fine contribution to the problem that confronts the Congress.

We want your cooperation, and we want to be able to make the proper decision in the approach to the solution of these problems. You have contributed a lot of information, and I particularly want to thank you for the various reports and studies that you are filing with the committee.

I direct the clerk to secure those and put them in the files of the committee for the much-needed information we are going to have to have before we can properly prepare legislation in this field. Thank you very much.

Mr. MEYER. May I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that if any members of the committee wish any person copies of those, we are very happy to let them have them.

Mr. BAILEY. Thank you.

At the suggestion of the gentleman from New Jersey, I find it necessary now to accommodate one of the witnesses who must catch a plane, and call at this time Dr. Michael Plesher, United Steelworkers of America.

Mr. MacDonald, will you please come forward and introduce our next witness?

STATEMENT OF MICHAEL A. PLESHER, STAFF MEMBER, INSURANCE, PENSION, AND UNEMPLOYMENT DEPARTMENT, UNITED STEELWORKERS OF AMERICA; ACCOMPANIED BY JOSEPH J. MacDONALD, LEGISLATIVE REPRESENTATIVE, UNITED STEELWORKERS OF AMERICA

Mr. MACDONALD. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, my name is Joseph J. MacDonald, legislative representative of the United Steelworkers of America, and with your permission I would be very pleased to present the next witness.

Mr. BAILEY. Do so.

Mr. MACDONALD. The gentleman who will appear as the next witness is Mr. Michael Plesher, who is a staff representative of the United Steelworkers of America, from Pittsburgh, Pa., who is assigned to our pension and insurance department, and also serves as a consultant for our Committee on the Retired and Aged Steelworkers. Mr. Michael Plesher.

Mr. BAILEY. Mr. Plesher, you may proceed with your testimony. Mr. PLESHER. Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, in addition to what Mr. MacDonald has said, to further inform you as to my capacities and my experience in this area, I must say that I hold a Ph. D degree in economics, a master's degree in public health, and because of this training and related experience I have had the privilege of representing the United Steelworkers Union on the local, State, and Federal level on a wide range of social welfare and economic mat

ters.

I might add, too, that I am chairman of the board of public assistance in Washington County, Pa., whose function, among other things, is to implement the Pennsylvania Kerr-Mills Act.

I consider it a great privilege to have this opportunity to appear before your subcommittee today to present testimony in behalf of the committee on retired workers.

First, because it is an indication to those of us so involved in the problem area of the aged that it may at least be given formal recognition as a high-priority problem area. We, of course, have for some time viewed the aged problem not as one of many, but as one of the major problems facing our Nation.

We welcome the prospect of substantial additional assistance in our efforts to define the needs of the elderly and to promote efforts in meeting these needs; to encourage community recognition and understanding of these needs, and to remove the reluctance of individuals to accept aging as a personal problem.

Secondly, because it gives us an opportunity to share with you some of our experiences and attitudes which may be of some assistance to you in making your decisions on the matters before us.

I am here today to present a point of view which favors the establishment of an independent, high-level Commission on Aging with those objectives and functions set forth in bill H.R. 10014.

At the outset, may I say that we in the United Steelworkers of America have had considerable experience in attempting to solve the various problems of the aged steelworkers, as well as his elderly neighbors.