Metuchen, N.J., and as a former president of the National University Extension Association. Much progress would be made if the so-called general extension bill, H.R. 8732, could receive favorable action in this Congress because one of the pressing needs which that bill proposed to meet in part is that of university service to the public in the field of the aging.

If there are any questions about educational problems or anything, I would be glad to answer them if you have any. If not, that is it. Mr. DANIELS. The Chair has no questions.

Mr. ELLSWORTH. We had testimony from the head of the extension at the University of California at Berkeley to the effect that they have many, many requests for extension programs for the senior citizen groups, especially people from 45 up, and for retired groups and that there are many programs that they feel they could put out that would be of great value to the senior citizens, both educationally and culturally and in other ways. But unfortunately in California they do not have money to do this because the extension service must support itself to the extent of 90 percent of the income that must come from registration fees, which makes the fee so high they cannot service the senior population.

Does that exist here? He was asking that grants be made so that they could do this.

Dean WEIDNER. A similar situation exists in New Jersey. In fact, the amount of support which we must realize in the university extension division at Rutgers, the State university, is that 110 percent of expenses must be realized from fees. We must cover all our costs of operation.

We might be considered in some areas as an auxiliary operation. We receive no State funds to support our general extension program here at Rutgers, the State university, no State or Federal funds. That is the reason that Dean McMahon indicated that we could do something about some of these problems in the aging if we had some type of Federal support for programs which might meet the needs, the general need of the public in the area of aging.

We are obliged to deny requests for programs among the older groups, because, as we all know, the funds are not available to enable you to pay a teacher, a group of teachers, to advertise the costs of promotion as we call it to put staff time on. Staff time has to be covered out of the income. Because, as I mentioned before, we are selfsupporting and more so to the extent of 10 percent, and sometimes it has been in some years 15 percent more than we actually expend. We have to bring that in.

Does that answer your question, Mr. Ellsworth?

Mr. ELLSWORTH. Yes.

Mr. DANIELS. Dean Weidner, I wanted to bring something to your attention. You and I have discussed this personally, but last year I sat on the Subcommittee on Special Education which considered the university extension bill in which you were very much interested, and which caused you to come down to Washington to talk on behalf of its enactment. The trouble as I saw it was that so many people who appeared before the committee asked for requests to conduct courses in such as repairing bicycle tires, and to train salesmen and they went into so many fields which we thought were not the proper func

tion of the university extension course. As a result some members frowned upon the bill.

As I stated to you then and as I repeat now, that if you could, and other educators interested in such a bill being passed by Congress, if some consideration should be given to tightening up its provisions so that you cannot sponsor any kind of a program which would not have some connection with proper university work.

DEAN WEIDNER. I agree with your point of view on this. I was horrified at the reaction and at some of the testimony. I just felt that it was completely irrelevant. I didn't make the point.

I agree with you completely, Congressman Daniels, that we do have to do this.

Our own testimony and that of Dr. Gross, which I read into the testimony then, would indicate a greater interest in the needs and the problems of society and what the university could do would be to focus the resources of the university on problems of the people throughout this State, provided we receive some financial support for this.

As I mentioned before, unfortunately, in this particular area of adult education, we do not receive direct support from the State. It must be self-supporting. This is quite a disadvantage.

I appreciate your comments, Congressman Daniels. I have been trying to work on our national committee to see if we couldn't do something like this.

Mr. ELLSWORTH. The other witnesses also testified almost unanimously that they felt they could never have a proper program for the aging without a rounded program which included education, and apparently your extension service here cannot.

Are there any facilities in the State that do provide any educational services for the aging?

Dean WEIDNER. The New Jersey Division of Aging, of which Mrs. Eone Harger is the director, will provide grants for pilot programs occasionally. Well, we don't like to become involved in accepting a grant for a program knowing that ultimately it would have to support itself or we would have to have funds elsewhere.

I think many foundation projects have really been misleading. They don't build in a means of support after the support of the grant is

gone.

Mr. Ast mentioned the New Jersey Association for Adult Education. They are interested in this. They are in a little better position, but they still, to their evening school programs, must charge a tuition because what you don't make on one program you have to make up on another, so that it is a matter of who pays the freight, who pays the cost really. It is not a good situation.

Mr. ELLSWORTH. Mrs. Harger will testify in Washington, so I imagine we will be able to get this from her.

Dean WEIDNER. That will be fine.

Mr. DANIELS. Thank you, Dean Weidner.
Dean WEIDNER. Thank you for the opportunity.

Mr. DANIELS. In the absence of any further witnesses we all adjourn now for luncheon and return at 1:30.

(Whereupon a recess for luncheon was taken until 1:30 p.m.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

Mr. ELLSWORTH. We will start with Phyllis Greer, extension specialist in human relations, Agricultural Extension, Rutgers University-the State university. Will you come up and take a seat over here, please.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. PHYLLIS GREER, EXTENSION SPECIALIST IN HUMAN RELATIONS, RUTGERS UNIVERSITY

Mrs. GREER. May I say that we at the college farm are hoping that people will forget that title. It is the college of agriculture. Mr. ELLSWORTH. It is the college of agriculture?

Mrs. GREER. Yes.

Mr. ELLSWORTH. Where did we get the farm from; is that wishful thinking?

Mrs. GREER. I am afraid it used to be called the college farm and in the spirit of hastiness we still refer to it as the college farm, because it is so much easier. But for the official record I would beg you not to use it.

Mr. ELLSWORTH. All right, continue.

Mrs. GREER. I have a few things to say; do not be concerned about all this pile of material I have here.

I appreciate very much the opportunity to be here this morning.

I am appreciative of the progress that has been made and is being made in the area of aging because I have been involved in it since 1950 and there has been so much lagging and wavering in approaching the problem, let alone trying to find solutions of the problem that it is delightful to have so much going on at this time.

I wish to speak primarily on two aspects of aging, one is education and the other is research.

I would like to call attention to these two things and then go into the need for the bills. I feel very strongly that there is a great need for education for aging, even more than education for the aged, and I want to make clear the distinction between aged and aging.

Firstly, there should be methods and money available to satisfy the needs of the aged for education and in areas of health, mental health, maintenance, rehabilitation, constructive use of leisure time, pursuing increasing knowledge of skills which would enrich their lives, even assisting in continuing their usefulness to society. More important, however, is the need for education for the aging, as aging begins at first and continues throughout the lifetime. This is obviously a large task and really includes education for the aged, too.

In all the areas of education I think there needs to be a greater emphasis on education for aging in elementary, secondary, college, university level and adult education. We should make an effort to provide information and knowledge which will increase the understanding of the psychological and physical changes occurring as persons get older. We also need to make every effort to encourage wholesome attitudes. toward aging, and there needs to be more, many more opportunities for education that will develop competencies to work in this area as aging both for training of lay persons and of professional persons.

My other big plea is for research. We don't know nearly enough about human development and human needs to be sure of what really

is needed for aging at this point. We need to answer a lot of questions that start with why and what and how.

I wish to make a big plea for funds for research in specific areas in interdisciplinary research which involves the social sciences, medicine, and all the other areas, and also for the pure, basic research where the object is that we don't know exactly what we are looking for, but these are the places where we find things that are the most important for our living.

Then applied research goes on from there. As far as the particular bills are concerned, I am particularly interested in the amount of the grants and I am particularly interested in S. 2779. I should put on my grasses if I am going to look at something; it is catching up to me. I am particularly interested in including a continuing assessment of needs and resources. I think we need a continuing assessment, but I am very firmly opposed to pure study at this point.

We have a great deal of study on the needs for the aging and I think we know pretty much as much as we can know, without further research.

Back in 1957 in New Jersey I was on a legislative commission to study the needs in New Jersey, and it was this commission that came up with the recommendation for the division of aging in our State department. I think that was a progressive step.

I was involved in the White House Conference and we have this huge report [indicating document] which is only a part of the findings of the White House Conference a year ago. I think we don't need any more study. At this point we need action.

A continuous study to reassess what has happened and so forth, yes; but not just set up bills for another study.

The next function: development of policy and proposals and program. I would like again to reemphasize the needs in there for education at all levels.

The grant-in-aid, I think, that are under this bill are very interesting. I would like again to emphasize education and I would like to make a plea that more be granted for research.

The research is a very small grant in comparison to the program of the grant. I think that before we can have adequate programs we need to have a great deal of research.

May I also say that after having gone through the special class in public administration at the Maxwell Graduate School at Syracuse I rather sudder at a three-man commission. The direct line of control, I feel, could accomplish a great deal more and, if I may say so, I think the existing departments would accomplish more than a special commission. The reason I say this is that I think the existing departments could carry out the functions that are incorporated in these things very well, if they had the funds with which to do it.

I think the commission would give a great deal of status which would be very nice. On the other hand, I think that if there were adequate funds to do a really topnotch job that the status would come along with it.

My plea is for education and research primarily.

Mr. ELLSWORTII. When you say a "direct line of control," I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean it should be one man, or just what are you referring to?

Mrs. GREER. Yes, a one line of control that someone is responsible to one person above. And when you get a three-man commission there is no one completely responsible, it is inclined also in the adminis trative setup to be off at one side so that there is less control over the actions and activities of a three-man commission than there would be over one appointed person.

Mr. ELLSWORTH. You are referring to somebody like an under secretary?

Mrs. GREER. Yes.

Mr. ELLSWORTH. We have had a suggestion, for the people who are not familiar with the amount of money for research, there is a provision in the Fogarty bill and one or two of the others that provide $2 million annually for not only research, but this includes demonstration projects and training and so forth.

So it will be a lot less than the $2 million going into pure research. We have had a proposal that there should be a separate title to the act to provide funds for training. In a lot of the areas of a field that training is even more needed than research, there just aren't enough people to do the job.

Would you suggest a certain amount be allocated? Is this what you had in mind for research and to set it up as a separate research fund?

Mrs. GREER. I would think so. I didn't have that in mind, but I think it is an excellent idea. I think there is need for training because there are certain things that we do know.

On the other hand, there are so many things that we still do not know, that we need a great deal of research in this area.

So many of us are proceeding on our best guess rather than real knowledge and fact. For example, the whole process of aging, itself, the diseases, medical science has done a great deal, but there is still so much further to go. The whole process of changes that happen physically in the process of aging. We need to know an awful lot more on just plain, simple, basic research on those things. So often they are not the kind of thing that a company is going to think that, well, we will contribute to their product, for example, and therefore they are not inclined to subsidize it.

When I see a definite relationship by doing research here that I can come up with a better mousetrap, then the mousetrap companies are very likely to subsidize it. But in something that is more vague than that it is much more difficult to get funds.

I did not want to complicate the record, but I have here a speech by Dr. John H. Teller, who is the executive director of the New England Institute for Medical Research, and this whole thing is a plea for basic research for this kind of thing.

The interdisciplinary approach, he points out, generally speaking, in colleges and universities that research comes after teaching and administration.

I am glad that this is not entirely true of Rutgers because we have many research-minded people here including our president. In government, service comes first and then time for research. In medicine, teaching and caring for the sick come first and then research.

Research is sort of tied on as to be done in the time you have left over from your regular job, and those of us who have regular jobs I am sure we all know that there is never any time left over.