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brought up another point that I don't think was raised earlier, and that concerns some of the inherent difficulties facing groups such as yours in regard to meeting places. I have encountered this problem with the older citizens' groups in my congressional district in Michigan. At the moment, I am trying to help one such group in a town of 3,000 or 4,000 that is having a great deal of difficulty finding a meeting place. Under the regulations of the school board, the group would have to pay a janitorial fee to meet in a school.

Mr. CLAFFKE. We are most fortunate. The Soroptomist Club takes care of that janitorial service.

Mr. O'HARA. I am going to suggest to some of the clubs in the Michigan community that perhaps they could help out by paying the janitorial fee. I have been trying to find them space in a federally owned building in the community, and there are a couple of them. The difficulty this club has experienced stems from the fact that it wants to get everybody possible to participate in its activities. They hesitate to take a collection at the meetings for fear that some people are having such financial difficulties that this might lead them to stay away.

I think your testimony will be very helpful to us, and I want to thank you for appearing.

Mr. Giaimo?

Mr. Giaimo. Mr. Claffke, you brought up, as Mr. O'Hara has just stated, a point that many of us have not given much thought to until recently, and until you stressed it in the hearing today.

Last Saturday I held office hours in my district office in New Haven, Conn., and I had a group of senior citizens come in to see me on the very point you mentioned today. The board of education in New Haven opened a new school and as part of it has a library and all for the public, this is something unusual in education, it has this additional public library, the public can use, and as part of it they have a senior citizens' center there, but the citizens told me that the trouble is they have to have an attendant on duty and the budget of the board of education is not large enough to have one there on weekends, and after 5 o'clock, and this has created a real problem for them, because they feel that they get a great deal of use out of the center on weekends and also in the evenings.

Mr. CLAFFKE. It seems to me that in that case some of the members should have sufficient ability to handle the job of an attendant.

Mr. GIAIMO. They would be willing to do this, but, unfortunately, the rules of the board prevent it. That is the exact point they came to see me about, to see if we couldn't get the board of education and the mayor to allow them to do the custodial work, and also maintain the place with an attendant so that they could keep it open during the weekends, particularly, and also in the evenings.

Mr. CLAFFKE. Our board has been most cooperative in everything that we have asked for in this case. I hope to be the librarian for the club now that I retired from the presidency after some 3 years in that office, but I have only had one book taken out.

Mr. O'HARA. Mr. Claffke, let me assure you and the others in this hearing room that they needn't worry about the senior citizens of New Haven, Conn., getting that meeting center opened weekends and in the evenings, I am sure Mr. Giaimo will succeed in convincing the school board and the mayor.

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Mr. GIAIMO. I hope so.
Mr. CLAFFKE. Thank you for the privilege.

Mr. O'HARA. I have been informed that a Mrs. Tuller would like to give us the benefit of her views. She is also from the Lodi group. If Mrs. Tuller

Mrs. TULLER. Mr. Chairman, I told Mrs. Athey that I was to speak after lunch and I asked Mrs. Athey to fill in the time that I was supposed to have, and if I may be excused?

Mr. O'HARA. You certainly may. I am pleased that you joined us here today, and I enjoyed talking to you at noon. If anyone else would like to make a few remarks at this point, please stand and come forward.

(No response.)

Mr. O'HARA. Inasmuch as there apparently is no further testimony to be offered, and we are approaching the time when we are due to leave, I would like to thank all of you, the Governor of California, the Honorable Edmund G. Brown, and the officials of the State of California and the State legislature for the many courtesies granted to us.

I want to thank all of you for your help and contributions. I would like to mention that the Member of Congress who represents Sacramento in the U.S. House of Representatives, the Honorable John Moss, talked to me about these hearings and told me he would like to be here, but that important committee business in Washington was going to prevent his attendance.

I think we agree that Mr. Sansome has given us yeoman service today and has made our job really very easy. We appreciate what he has done for us.

Mr. SANSOME. Thank you.

Mr. ELLSWORTH. I think we ought to add for the record, Mr. Chairman, that the work done by Margaret Jensen from the Citizens' Advisory Commission in lining up the people for this hearing is appreciated, in lining it up long distance with secondhand information as to who has been invited and who hasn't, to have somebody of her caliber coordinating for us, I think made it a successful meeting, where otherwise we might have been talking about different things. Mr. O'HARA. I join you in those sentiments. Finally, I must

unce that although the subcommittee originally scheduled hearings for southern California on Monday of next week, because of circumstances we did not anticipate, that is, because we are going to have a number of important measures before the House of Representatives for a vote on Monday, these hearings will have to be canceled. We shall be in Washington on Monday.

At this point, I shall recess the hearings of the General Subcommittee on Education of the House Committee on Education and Labor.

(Whereupon, at 3:55 p.m., the subcommittee adjourned.)
(The following letters were received by Chairman Bailey :)

SACRAMENTO, CALIF., March 21, 1962. DEAR MR. BAILEY: It seems as though the only people who know just what is and is not good for we older folk are those people of a much younger generation. And they have had no experience.

I hope that your hearing here will produce something beside just talk and theory. Very truly,

JOHN H. OHL.

SACRAMENTO, CALIF., March 20, 1962. Hon. CLEVELAND M. BAILEY, Chairman of Committee on Problems of Aged.

DEAR SIR: The crying need for the aged is for the senior homes and lifetime care that is not so expensive. We of the middle class can't afford these expensive senior residence of lifetime care; as e.g., $17,000 to $35,000 downpayments, plus $200 plus for monthly board.

Also individual services are too high for us also, as well as hospital and medical care. A great majority of us do not come under the social security plan, and even so, it is not adequate. Sincerely,

W. SHERROD.

PROBLEMS OF THE AGED AND AGING

SATURDAY, MARCH 31, 1962

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
GENERAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION
OF THE COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR,

Berkeley, Calif. The subcommittee met at 10:10 a.m., pursuant to call, in the Students' Union Building, Berkeley, Calif., Hon. James G. O'Hara (acting chairman of the General Subcommittee on Education) presiding.

Present: Representative Robert Giaimo.

Present also: Robert M. McCord, director; Ted Ellsworth, special consultant on aging.

Mr. O'HARA. The General Subcommittee on Education of the House Committee on Education and Labor will come to order.

The purpose of the hearings being conducted in Berkeley today is to take testimony with regard to a number of bills that have been introduced dealing with the creation of a commission, a bureau, an agency, or a committee to coordinate efforts in meeting the problems of the aged and aging.

Among these bills, which differ in a number of respects, are: H.R. 246, by Mr. Libonati; H.R. 280, by Mr. Zablocki; H.R. 306, by Mr. Bennett; H.R. 558, by Mr. Rodino; H.R. 710, by Mr. Lane, H.R. 2377, by Mr. Addonizio; H.R. 2764, by Mr. Halpern; H.R. 3071, by Mrs. Pfost; H.R. 3739, by Mr. Cramer; H.R. 5030, by Mr. Morgan; and H.R. 10014, by Mr. Fogarty.

The question in which the committee is most interested deals with the different approaches suggested by the bills, and, of course, the larger question of whether such an agency or bureau would be helpful. There have been many conferences on problems of the aging. The White House Conference and State and regional conferences have made a number of recommendations.

One of the recommendations by the White House Conference was that some sort of central coordinating body be organized. Some State conferences have proposed that it be established as an independent office or agency. Others recommend that it be established as a division within the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare.

We are interested in discovering, first, whether there is a need for an agency on the Federal level, and secondly, if there is need for Federal, State and local committees and nonprofit research.

We want to determine whether there is confusion because no one agency is responsible for coordinating work on the problems of the aged. We want information on whether needed services are being neglected because of a lack of funds or an agency to stimulate them.

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If this is true, we hope to determine what type of agency is needed and what form Federal encouragement and support should take.

I am Representative James G. O'Hara of Michigan, acting chairman of the subcommittee at these hearings.

To my right is Representative Robert Giaimo, of Connecticut, and on my left is Robert McCord, the subcommittee counsel. Special consultant on the problems of the aging, Mr. Ellsworth, is on my far right.

The chairman of this subcommittee is Representative Cleveland M. Bailey, of West Virginia, who had planned to be with us today but who was unable to do so because of important business in West Virginia.

Representative Jeffrey Cohelan, of California, who represents the Berkeley area, spoke to us with regard to his interest in this problem. He said he hoped to be here to testify, but he was unable to do So. Mr. Cohelan's interest in these proposals is well known in Washington. He is, in fact, the sponsor of a bill which would establish a special select House committee to deal with problems of the aged. The House now has no single committee to deal with these problems.

The first witness today is Dr. Gordon. Is Dr. Gordon here? Dr. GORDON. Yes.

Mr. O'Hara. Dr. Gordon, thank you for furnishing us a prepared statement. If you will identify yourself for the benefit of the reporter and the record, you may proceed in whatever manner you wish. . STATEMENT OF DR. MARGARET S. GORDON, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR,

INSTITUTE OF INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY Dr. GORDON. I am Margaret S. Gordon, associate director of the Institute of Industrial Relations, University of California, Berkeley, and I am also at present president of the Western Gerontological Society.

I am very much pleased to have an opportunity to appear in support of proposed legislation of vital significance for the well-being of older persons in the United States. I should like to point out from the start, however, that although I have been introduced as president of the Western Gerontological Society, I am not in any sense speaking officially for that organization. The Western Gerontological Society exists for the purpose of fostering better understanding of the problems of aging and stimulating research and training in gerontology on the west coast, but it does not take a position on legislative matters. However, I believe I am safe in saying that most of our members as individuals would support the general purposes of the proposed legislation. I need scarcely add that I am also not in any sense speaking for the University of California.

It is hardly necessary to elaborate on the social and economic trends which underlie the need for a special Federal agency concerned with problems of aging. The growth of the older population, the inadequate incomes of a substantial proportion of the aged, the shortage of suitable housing and of adequate nursing homes, the uneven distribution of community centers and recreational facilities for elderly persons, the barriers to employment of older workers, and other

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