Warren County Commissioners, Warren, Pa.

Robert K. Meredith, civil defense director, Tyrone, Pa.

Harold R. Clark, chairman, Venango County Commissioners, Franklin, Pa. Charles S. Adams, director, Berks County Civil Defense Council, Reading, Pa. Leroy H. Minor, Waynesburg, Pa.

Lt. Col. H. J. Blair, Waynesburg, Pa.

W. G. Weaver, director of civil defense, Gettysburg, Pa.

Mrs. Jane Gould Rishworth, national secretary, the American Legion Auxiliary, Washington, D. C.

LETTERS SUPPORTING H. R. 7227

Harold R Clark, director, Venango County Civil Defense Council, Franklin, Pa. Hon. Robert E. McCreary, civil defense council, Beaver, Pa.

Nelson W. Norwood, director, Carbon County Civil Defense, Jim Thorpe, Pa. William E. Van Horn, communications coordinator, Northumberland County Civil Defense Committee, Sunbury, Pa.

H. W. Shelmire, director, Chester County Council of Civil Defense, West Chester, Pa.

Mr. BROOKS. I would like to present to you at this time a distinguished gentleman and a friend of mine and a friend of the people of this country. His name is Maj. Gen. K. L. Berry, adjutant general, State of Texas.

STATEMENT OF MAJ. GEN. K. L. BERRY, ADJUTANT GENERAL, STATE OF TEXAS

General BERRY. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I am a member of the Governor's disaster and civil-defense committee headed by Mr. McGill. I would like to make a point. I agree with all these other gentlemen. I would like to tell you now that when we have a disaster down in my State-and I believe this would be equally true in other States the civil-defense director goes into action and one of the first agencies that goes into action under him is the National Guard. We call out sufficient troops and equipment to handle the disaster. But we are very short of equipment. The National Guard has only equipment which is sufficient to equip its men. So any surplus equipment, extra equipment that we need, we call on the regular forces for that. They dip into their war reserves in their depots and send out bedding and water-filtration plants and extra generators and additional supplies. So really the Federal Government has already spent a lot of money on this, so it seems to be, with all this surplus property, rather than selling it for a small part of its value and dipping into the war reserves to take care of these disasters, that this surplus property should be used for civil defense.

I am sure that there are many, many items that could be used for civil defense, or for any kind of a big disaster.

I hope that the bill passes.

Mr. BROOKS. Thank you very much for coming down here. We appreciate the personal inconvenience that you have gone to to get here.

If the members of the subcommittee have no questions of the general, I would like to present to you the civil-defense director from the city of Boston, who is also the President of the United States Civil Defense Council, Mr. Joseph Malone.

STATEMENT OF JOSEPH MALONE, CIVIL DEFENSE DIRECTOR, BOSTON, MASS., AND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES CIVIL DEFENSE COUNCIL

Mr. MALONE. Some of you may not know that the United States Civil Defense Council is an organization of local and county directors. I represent some 400 of those at this time.

I have expressed my thoughts briefly in a statement and I think perhaps this is the quickest way to get our feelings on the matter in the record.

As President of the United States Civil Defense Council, and also as representative of the Honorable John B. Hynes, mayor of Boston, and president of the United States Conference of Mayors, I am delighted to have this opportunity to speak in favor of a bill which seems to put into practice a program which has been the subject of more petitions, resolutions, and conferences in civil defense at the local level than any other that can be readily called to mind.

May I say that 400 members of our United States Civil Defense Council in meeting assembled passed resolutions on this matter, both at Memphis and Las Vegas, and we welcome the opportunity to speak here in favor of the accepted principle of assisting civil defense agencies at the State and local levels in securing some Federal surplus property, such items of equipment as can be used effectively, in providing a greater state of readiness for civil defense.

There are many arguments that can be advanced in favor of this logical and economical use of Federal surplus property. Time permits the mention of but a few.

I. Civil defense readiness is important to our posture picture of strength in the international scene.

Enemies are slow to attack those who are prepared. However— (a) Civil defense readiness is impossible without equipment.

(b) It is, however, an attainable goal with adequate equipment. (c) Federal surplus property spells the difference between civil defense resources and a state of readiness and those which exist only on paper.

II. Economy dictates that surplus property usable by civil defense agencies be allocated thereto.

1. By the simple process of distribution, a present liability; namely, these storehouses filled to capacity with equipment which is rapidly going into disuse, or corroding and gathering dust, resulting in costs attributable to storage and maintenance and accountability, becomes overnight a workable asset in the hands of those who are prepared to use it.

2. Present needs for civil defense equipment at local and State levels would be met.

3. A basis for civil defense readiness throughout the country would result.

4. Our posture picture of defense would be improved nationally. 5. The general public would feel "We are not helpless"-we have at hand in our own neighborhood some of the equipment and tools for survival. With that we can fashion greater strength and force.

6. Additional thousands would enroll in civil defense knowing that tools and equipment were ready and available for use in an emer

gency-just as our civil defense resources in Boston were ready to rush to the aid of Worcester during the Worcester disaster.

As an example, the 22 civil defense generators sent to the Worcester disaster by the city of Boston provided emergency lighting for a whole section of the disaster area for 3 weeks.

Civil defense emergency power saws and pumps helped in hurricanes Carol and Edna. Manpower needs equipment in disaster.

Let us in civil defense have the equipment to match our manpower and we will go far toward meeting our emergency needs.

III. The overall effect on the general public of the allocation of surplus property to civil defense agencies would be salutary.

1. It is gratifying to the taxpayer to see items which they had purchased at the Federal level returned to their use through their focal government. To them the purchases were good because they see that practical use is being made of them.

2. It is annoying for the taxpayer to purchase again at the local level what he formerly purchased at the Federal level.

IV. The President himself has stated and many of our Members of Congress are in agreement with him, that civil defense is a sheer necessity.

If this be true, then every available resource should be utilized to maintain civil defense, and Federal surplus property should be made available to civil-defense agencies whenever it can be effectively done. If you will bear with me, may I go on?

The principle has been laid down and established that such property as has been listed as surplus by one agency of the Government should be made available to other agencies of the Government which may have use therefor.

A corollary to the above is the thought that civil-defense agencies should have the opportunity to secure without cost such Federal property as may have been declared surplus provided that the agencies have a civil-defense use for such surplus property.

Believe me, gentlemen, civil defense has both the use and the emergency use for many of the items which from time to time have been or hereinafter may be declared surplus. A list of such items includes, but is not limited to, the following:

Medical equipment such as litters, ambulances, emergency hospitals, all hospital equipment, first-aid materials, and so forth.

Debris-clearance equipment such as bulldozers, trucks, engineering supplies, and so forth.

Engineering equipment, such as cranes, diggers, power supplies— generators of various sizes from 2.5 kilowatts to 40 kilowatts.

Emergency lighting equipment such as wires, batteries, flashlights, floodlights, lanterns, and so forth.

Rescue equipment which includes oxyacetylene torches, ropes of all sizes, block and tackle, steel cables, heavy-duty jacks, and digging equipment.

Welfare supplies including cots, blankets, sheeting, 5- to 10-gallon thermos jugs for emergency food handling.

Communications equipment of various types such as loudspeakers with bull horns, radio equipment, field-telephone sets, and so forth.

An entire booklet, M-25, issued by FCDA, indicates but a part of the long list of necessary approved civil-defense equipment. No city or State can begin to purchase all that it needs even for its training

purposes. However, if supplies which constitute any part of this list or any reasonable substitutes therefor are available as surplus property, then let us by all means have it made available to civil-defense agencies throughout the country through the same channels which now make it available to certain other agencies in the several cities and States.

Mr. BROOKS. I would like to thank you very much for that forthright statement.

If there are no questions, I would like to present Mr. Thane Durey, civil defense deputy director of the State of Ohio.

STATEMENT OF THANE DUREY, CIVIL DEFENSE DEPUTY DIRECTOR, STATE OF OHIO

Mr. DUREY. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, this is one of those valuable privileges we have as American citizens, and I appreciate very much the opportunity to present to you Ohio's position on this rather important matter.

In the first place, I think probably you know that the State of Ohio has the largest number of critical target cities of any State in the Union. We have spent approximately $8 million on the matchingfund program, which includes a lot of material which has been sold at 1 cent to 10 cents on the dollar as surplus property. A good deal of that money is Federal money and could have been saved had we had this type of legislation in effect.

We have in addition to that about 1,000 civil-defense organizations, many of them unable to do a job from a financial standpoint which they should and could do if they had something like this to bolster them and to stimulate their activity.

With your permission, I would like to present three specific examples of things that indicate not only the inconsistency of the present situation, and injustice, but also to point out the assistance and the help that this type of legislation can give to all of us.

In addition to that, I think it will point out also the fact there is no great conflict of interest between civil defense and these other agencies which have been receiving this type of material heretofore because they want something we do not need and we need things which they do not

want.

If I may, first, say

this: A short time ago we were told in Ohio that there were between 50,000 and 100,000 helmet liners available to the State of Ohio. We were very anxious to get them. It took pretty nearly a year and we found out that we could not get them. This type of equipment had been put out in Indiana and Michigan under the education provisions of the present Surplus Property Act. After we got into it, we were told by the gentlemen of the General Services Administration we could not have that in the State of Ohio, and as a result of action taken by a rather vindictive individual, these helmets which had already been distributed in the States of Indiana and Michigan were required to be returned and we were told-and this is the payoff, the tipoff-we were told when they came back to the surplus property stockpile where they had been taken from, that they would probably

have to be run over by bulldozers in order to get them out of the way, they had no space for their storage.

No. 2, we understand very clearly that there are in one of our major Air Force bases enough communications equipment out in the weather-and they have no storage space for it-to take care of a large portion of the needs for that type of equipment. It has not yet been declared surplus. They cannot declare it salvage in all conscience because it is in reasonably workable condition. But when it is, what will happen is this: In all probability none of the present agencies care for it so it will be put up for sale and will be sold for 1 to 10 cents on the dollar at the most.

Civil defense in Ohio has spent between $500,000 and $1 million on communication equipment. Can you see what it would mean if we could have that type of equipment made available to us? It would save money not only to the State of Ohio and our organizations which need it desperately; it would save Federal money.

The third point is rather insignificant, but I think that it points up a very definite factor in this very important matter.

The Coast Guard in the little town of Ashtabula, up in the northwest corner of Ohio, has an outlook post which they have found no further use for. They have changed their approach to the problem of protecting the shipping on the Great Lakes. They were willing to turn that over to a ground observer corps for use. We went through all kinds of contortions trying to get permission for that to be accomplished. We now cannot have it because the ground observer corps is not eligible for that type of equipment. So what will happen? The thing will be torn down and the material, after the expenditure of time and effort, will be sold as salvage and our people in the ground observer corps in the communities where they are located do not have the funds to develop that type of equipment except at great sacrifice, and by contributions of the patriotic citizens of this State and these communities.

There, I think, you have three very definite examples of what the situation is, and I think that you can draw the conclusion from that that if we had this type of legislation in effect those inconsistencies and injustices could be eliminated and you would materially, I would say, greatly assist the development of civil defense at the local level where the operational factors of this big problem must be solved.

Thank you very much for the privilege of appearing before you. Mr. BROOKS. That was a very fine statement. I think that possibly our subcommittee, or some other subcommittee of the full committee, would be interested in a documentation and a more elaborate statement as to the destruction of the helmet liners.

Mr. DUREY. I made the statement that I was told that. I do not know that. That was the statement made.

Mr. BROOKS. If you could get that documented and get some facts on it, we would be pleased to look into it, or some other subcommittee would.

I would now like to present Mr. George Arnold, civil defense director, of Columbus, Ohio.