STATEMENT OF LT. GEN. CLARENCE HUEBNER, CIVIL DEFENSE DIRECTOR, NEW YORK STATE

General HUEBNER. Mr. Chairman, it is a great pleasure to be here this morning. My State is very much for your bill, and I could list the number of items that we could use, but that has probably been covered as well as I could cover it. However, I would like at this time to make a statement in order to give you some idea of the work of civil defense, so that you can better fit in this supply problem.

Civil defense for all intents and purposes is a civilian military organization. It is set up on a control level from the State, city, and county. All of them have to operate headquarters, and have really all of the facilities of an Army headquarters. Instead of having divisions, regiments, and battalions, we have services. The first one is the aircraft warning service. We have 562 posts in the State of New York, and 4 filter centers. It takes about 1,000 people to run one of those filter centers. They are all volunteers.

Many things in the surplus equipment line could be used such as cooking facilities, intercoms, and any organizational equipment, and things of that nature. Then, we have a complete chaplain service. The Army also has chaplains, and all the services have chaplain services, and probably a great many of their supplies become surplus.

In the communications field, there is a terrific need. We not only must depend upon our telephones that are permanently installed, but we must lay landlines after the bomb is dropped. This takes telephones, and it takes wire, and it takes switchboards, and the training of people to do those things.

In the field of radio equipment, we use the radios of all the services, but in addition to that, we must have radio frequencies, and equipment which is somewhat like the battalion and regimental equipment in the infantry division, because we operate these services around the periphery of wherever the bomb is dropped.

There is a great deal of radio equipment being made surplus now because of improvements and modernization, and the transistor is coming in and I imagine that there will be great stocks of very fine radio equipment which will become available in the not too distant future.

Of course, we have in the engineering and public works field the bulldozers, and graders, and any of the heavy equipment which is needed. Generators and lighting equipment, and all those things are needed very badly.

Now, in regard to the question of fire, I doubt if there will be much fire equipment made available by the Federal Government, but in operating the fire equipment, we find that there are many things such as laying landlines, and things like that, to control the problem. When you get two or three hundred pieces of fire apparatus around the periphery of a fire, it is not easy to control.

In regard to food distribution, there is a terrific problem, because we have to feed our people who are working up front. The utensils such as the food warmers and things like that which are now in service are invaluable to us.

Now, in regard to manpower, every civil-defense entity has to have manpower, and you have to utilize all the people.

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We may find equipment such as filing cabinets, and things like that, which will become very useful to us, all of which, if we do not get it in this way, will have to be purchased.

In the medical field, we have already spent $17 million in the State of New York for medical supplies. It includes over 3,000 first-aid station kits, as well as other items. Some of this cost has been matched by the Federal Government, about $3 million, but the State owns the rest of it. It does not seem sensible to me to see cots, mattresses, litters, medicines and all those things which are surplus to the Federal Government, go into the hands of the civilian market, because we simply have to go back and buy it back ourselves.

The problem of antibiotics is a terrific one. Antibiotics are very expensive. If the services keep on cutting down, and as new things develop, penicillin and things like that should become available, and they should certainly be placed in our stockpile, or in the Federal stockpile.

Plant protection is another thing. I cannot visualize very much in the field of plant protection because that is handled, and operated by the firms themselves.

So, I doubt if there is much need for surplus property there.

In the field of public information, there is a great need. I notice that this morning there are some offset presses being made available, and they certainly are needed to get out your papers, and to do things like that, and to prepare your short radio skits, and other things.

So, I imagine there would be a lot of that equipment available. Tremendous training programs are going on in all the services. There are projectors, loudspeakers, and all kinds of projection apparatus which are invaluable to us if we can get hold of it, and it is horribly expensive.

Of course, in regard to radiological equipment, I doubt if there will be any of that available from that viewpoint, but it will be important from the standpoint of communications.

In other words, if your people in the field are going to survey what the radiation intensity is of their various places, they must communicate, and there is great need in the radiological field for communications equipment, both landline and radio.

In the field of transportation, I imagine the schools now have access to some of the equipment, and that should not be a problem. However, we have the same training problem in the schools that we have in all the other civil defense organizations.

Now, in supply, if we go to war, and if we are in a disaster area, and if enemy bombers do get through, we will take what we need, but we expect to pay for it. That means that a complete cataloging of all the resources of the State down to and including the townships, is involved, and it is a tremendous administrative job.

Filing cabinets, blank forms, or anything like that, which would lend itself to our operations, then we should have it.

It is foolish to sell those things, when we need them so much, and I would like to make this point now: Civil Defense is a part of the defense of this country which the National Government is responsible for. You are actually not donating anything. You are only doing what you are supposed to do by making this equipment available to us. Whichever echelon of government it is in-if it is in the Federal stockpile or in a State stock

pile, or if it is out with the operating services in the counties and cities, it is just as important equipment as that which you give to the National Guard, which is expected to be used on the front lines.

Now, on transportation, we expect to utilize the equipment that we have in the States. We do not expect to stockpile transportation except, maybe, our mobile command posts, and things like that. If you have a particularly good 10-ton tractor-trailer available at surplus, even if the motor is worn out, some city may want that to set up a mobile communications center.

They are quite expensive, and they have to be altered anyway.

We are getting along pretty well in our State in that way, by the public utilities people giving us some of their wornout equipment like buses, and things of that nature.

Now, in the warden service, we control the people. That is the connecting link between civil defense, and the people themselves. Our great shortage there is training equipment, because in the warden service you have to give them full training in first aid, fire fighting, rescue work, and all those things. Training equipment such as projectors and things of that nature are needed.

In the field of communications, we would like very much to depend upon the vast fixed communications, but the bomb may take care of that. So, if a bomb is dropped, we must tie in either by radio or telephone these various echelons of command.

Finally, we come to the people themselves-the welfare division-of which the Department of Health, Education and Welfare is responsible for from a Federal level under the supervision of the Civil Defense Director. Our main cost there is blankets, beds, clothings, and so forth. If a bomb comes down in the middle of the night, and if the people come out the way they are dressed, then we must keep them warm. So, I think that there is more of this equipment that is usable in the national defense than one would imagine, and it is very, very vital to us.

The getting of the equipment within itself is not the end of the program. You have to get it, but you have to preserve it, and you have to store it, and you also have to pay the transportation charges from wherever it is located. So, the State or the county or the city that gets his stuff faces a financial obligation on it, of their own.

There is no way by which you can give them these things free for nothing, because they still have to apply to utilize that equipment. I think that about covers my case, Mr. Chairman.

I have the unanimous support of all the civil defense directors in the State of New York, of which there are 58, attesting to the fact that we need this equipment.

Mr. BROOKS. General, I want to say that I think you made a splendid statement, and you have given some of the pertinent details as to why this legislation is vitally needed for the defense of this country.

As you say, civil defense is an integral part of the defense of this country, and its people.

Do you have any questions, or comments, on the General's splendid statement, Mr. Riehlman?

Mr. RIEHLMAN No; except that I want to concur in what you had to say, Mr. Chairman.

His last statement clarifies a question to some degree which I had in mind, and that was after accepting the responsibility for surplus property, providing you can get it, whether or not the facilities are available for storage and care.

General HUEBNER. Well, I am sure that in our medical procurement program we have had to spend a considerable amount of money for storage because this equipment is perishable, and it is subject to pilferage. We have made provision for the care of such equipment, and I am sure that no State would take this equipment, and appropriate the necessary money to bring it there, and separate it into various categories for defense purposes which would not provide the necessary storage.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. Would you, General, in New York State, be responsible for seeing that that responsibility is carried out by the State? General HUEBNER. Yes, sir. Our law in that regard is very positive, and I am responsible. I am not altogether responsible, but the commission is responsible, and I am its executive director. The commissioner of New York State is the Governor, and you have a direct line of responsibility on the equipment.

We have millions of dollars worth of stuff already, and I have a section of my office that is set up now to account for this equipment. We are subject to inspection and audit and control by the State Government. We are just like the National Guard, or any other part of the State government. Once public moneys have gone into equipment, the full cost is immaterial, as long as the city or county or township of the State has put any money at all even for transportation into it, then it becomes State property.

I would also like to mention that we cannot accept property from anyone in the State of New York except through our budget director. So, if we went into this there, again, the State would be very, very much responsible for it, because the director of the budget would consider this property as property of New York State.

Mr. BROOKS. Are there any questions, Mr. Reuss?

Mr. REUSS. No questions.

Mr. BROOKS. Mr. Kreuger?

Mr. KREUGER. I do not have any questions, but I would like to say that this committee is primarily interested in disposing of Government properties into private channels. Is that not our committee's work?

Mr. BROOKS. I would rephrase that, if you would allow me, to say that our committee, or my personal interest in the committee, is to see that the United States Government gets the fullest value out of any properties for which we have expended Federal tax money, and in the means of using it, I want it used by one agency, and then by another, so we obtain a full 100 percent use of it by Federal agencies. If it is sold, I always want it sold at the highest market value, and at its highest and best use.

Mr. KREUGER. I understand that, Mr. Chairman, but in disposing of some of these surplus properties, I would think we should have an inventory and submit the inventory in these various States to the civil defense authorities, and see what they can use before we make any offer to private concerns.

I note from the statement made here by a gentleman prior to the statement by General Huebner that private concerns paid $4 for a

litter, and then sold it to the State for $9.98 per litter. I would not like to see that happen again.

Mr. BROOKS. That is what this is designed to certainly stop, and we certainly agree with you, Mr. Krueger, in that.

Gentlemen, I see another Member of Congress has come into the hearing room, and I would like to digress and introduce to the committee and to the witnesses from the State of New York and Nassau County, the Honorable Steven B. Derounian, who has taken the time to come here in behalf of this legislation.

We would be very glad to hear from Mr. Derounian at this time.

STATEMENT OF HON. STEVEN B. DEROUNIAN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW YORK

Mr. DEROUNIAN. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate this opportunity to appear before your committee in behalf of this legislation, and I shall be necessarily brief, because you have a very heavy schedule.

I have a statement which I will submit for the record, and I also ask your permission to submit for the record a copy of a telegram which I received from the director of civil defense, county of Nassau. Mr. BROOKS. We shall be very glad to have your statement for the record, together with the telegram which you have described.

(The statement referred to follows:)

STATEMENT OF HON. STEVEN B. DEROUNIAN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW YORK

Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, I am most appreciative of this opportunity to appear before you in support of the proposal to authorize the disposal of surplus property for civil defense purposes.

The Second Congressional District of New York State, which I represent, lies within the county of Nassau, approximately 20 miles from the heart of New York City. Our proximity to the largest, most heavily populated city in the United States magnifies tremendously the situation faced by our county civil defense organization.

In the event that the city of New York shoud be attacked and Nassau County escape destruction by bombs, we would receive not less than one-half million evacuees from the city-and the population of Nassau County would immediately be doubled.

Our civil defense organization is an extremely able body but it could not fulfill the responsibilities with which it is charged without certain equipment-things such as temporary housing units in the form of tents and tarpaulins, emergency feeding kitchens, trucks, blankets, medical supplies, and countless other vital necessities. At present, before any attack occurs, our civil defense organization is in need of electronic equipment and office equipment for the training of volunteers at the community level-and this is an immediate and urgent need, on which our future safety, our lives, will depend.

Under an enemy attack, the effectiveness of our civil defense group could be completely strangled through lack of these materials which might so readily be available to it through enactment of the bill authorizing the disposal of Government surplus property for civil defense purposes.

Nassau needs this legislation.

I should also like to call to your attention the value of these same materialssurplus materials-in cases of natural disaster. In recent years, Long Island has been the victim of severe hurricanes, which has brought home to us, as I am sure it has in many other areas of the country, the need for this kind of assistance.