As I have viewed the testimony here, there are two sides to this and it is going to have to be up to the Congress to make the decision as to what happens to the legislation.

Mr. BARING. Thank you very much, Mr. Johnson.

Are there any questions?

Mr. HOSMER. Mr. Chairman, I think it should be pointed out that there has been some grumbling about the fact that the time has been limited, but I do not think there is real cause for concern because with the values placed upon this area and regarding this territory, we have testimony of both quality and quantity, and, so goes it with testimony, and I think the latter is equaled out very well.

Mr. BARING. All right, thank you, gentlemen.

The next panel will be Dr. Joe Haskell, Mr. Vernon Dornbach, Jr., Mr. Robbin Ives, and Mr. Ralph Dow.

All right, the next speaker, Joe Haskell.
Apparently, Mr. Haskell is not here.

We will start with Mr. Vernon E. Dornbach.

STATEMENT OF VERNON E. DORNBACH, JR., INDIVIDUAL

Dr. DORNBACH. I am Vernon Dornbach speaking as an individual. I am greatly concerned over the future of our wilderness areas in the United States and the insistent attempts on the part of some commercially oriented groups to penetrate and thus destroy these sanctuaries. I refer especially to the present attempts to open the San Gorgonio Wilderness Area to commercial winter sports activities. To do so would place in jeopardy the entire National Wilderness Preservation Act. Permit this one exception and the die is cast. Once this wilderness is penetrated, why cannot they all be so violated. The precedent is established. What right do the commercial promotors have to be granted special dispensation for this area? They are set aside as preserves and in perpetuity against the encroachment of civilization and there are those who would exploit them for their own gain. It is clearly a moral issue. I strongly urge that we do not sell out this preserve in this way. We have already lost forever too much of our natural beauty areas so vital for spiritual renewal in this technological and mechanical age. Any further encroachment should be unthinkable and vigilantly resisted.

The proposition as it now stands, argues for the use of only 3,500 acres, leaving 31,000 acres in its wilderness state. Does it not concern anyone that these 3,500 acres happen to be the heart of the area? What good is the boy without the heart? Such fallacious arguments are all too indicative of our commercial and technologically oriented age. I also sense a profit motive at work. If no profits were forthcoming there would be little or no interest in the area. Let us not deceive one another-ski lifts are only a beginning. The users of these facilities must be accommodated and made comfortable; then will follow the hotels, restaurants, refreshment stands, and bars. They will operate both winter and summer, for a profit must be made and will not be made on the amount of snow recorded in recent years. The same road that is constructed for the skiers, as responsible as they may be, will also be used by the beer can, spray paint can, and "Kleenex"

brigades. Why cannot we preserve 36,500 acres against increasing inroads of commercialization and smog? Why cannot we see the absolute necessity of unspoiled areas as a haven for the renewal of the spirit? The truth is simple, perhaps too much so.

One of the arguments used in the recent controversy concerning the placing of San Gorgonio in the National Wilderness Preservation Act, was its relatively small size. We should not advance arguments that equate size with quality, for 35,000 acres of wilderness in southern California is worth 350,000 acres elsewhere. Its size must not be considered out of context with its location and local population figures. Another fallacious argument advanced is one involving figures concerning users of the area. The argument centers around the fact that if it were opened to winter sports and a road carved into its heart, more people could use the area. This is true, but more use generally means abuse. America and Americans are obsessed with facts and figures. I would argue that the real value of a wilderness area is in direct ratio to the number of people who do not use it. Cannot an area's usefulness be equated with something other than attendance figures? This area cannot serve the accommodation of organized winter sports and all that it implies, and as a wilderness area--the two are incompatible. We of the present generation are the custodians of these unspoiled areas and it is our solemn obligation to preserve them for generations as yet unborn. May we prove to be good stewards. The choice for us is a moral one and demands moral judgments from moral people.

Thank you, gentlemen,

Mr. BARING. Thank you, sir.

Our next speaker will be Mr. Ralph Dow.

STATEMENT OF RALPH A. DOW, CAMP BRANCH EXECUTIVE, CAMP WHITTIER YMCA, WHITTIER, CALIF.

Mr. Dow. My name is Ralph A. Dow and I am a camp branch executive with the Whittier YMCA. Early in the 1930's the Whittier YMCA acquired a "special use permit" from the Forest Service to develop a residence camping facility in the San Gorgonio Wilderness Area. Primary in this move was the need to provide a high mountain camping experience for the youth of the Whittier area away from the onrushing growth of the metropolitan southern California area. It was the feeling then, as it is now, that the youth of our community should have the opportunity to gain the self-reliance and humbleness that only the realization of the bigness of the world that God has created around them can offer. The chance to experience the thrill of coming out of the forest into a clearing and spotting a doe and her fawns standing in the sunlight, and the challenge of reaching the top of a mountain much larger than themselves.

Over these experiences important not to some, they would transfer the inquisitive spirit of our youth to highways, restaurants, ski lifts and the support needed to provide a first-class skiing development. There are no doubts that family recreation has a place in our space age society but is the development the answer to the moral fiber of our country's youth?

How many of our young people develop into draft card burners or drains on our society because we the adults of today were too busy developing a commercial recreation facility and forgetting the development of the money that made the quiet country possible.

Again I ask, Are these values important? Approximately 32 years have passed in the history of our camping program. Thousands of our communities citizens of today experienced their first touch with the wonders of nature through our camp. At camp our youth learns to play and work together as a cabin unit. Here they watch the sun come up and in turn go home to their families. The family might not have been able to send their children to camp and yet they went, due to camperships this was possible, yet alone the family was unable to enjoy a skiing trip? They eagerly related cooking their first meal over an open fire or the thrill of catching their first fish in the cold water of the melting spring snow.

The opportunities of spiritual, mental, and physical growth through our camping programs has heen made possible by the wilderness area that surrounds our camp. Even without the proposed development the wilderness area is crowded in the summers. How can this be? You say, you will find the combined numbers of over 32 youth serving camps attempting to give our youth an experience that the enjoyment and thrill of skiing can't give; the development of humility of understanding for your fellow man and the skills to work and play together as brothers coupled with the lasting memory of the campfire or the swimming pool that only camp can give to a boy or a girl. I was a fortunate young man as maybe you were; my family gave me the opportunity to discover the forest world and my years at "Y" camp and sharing of these experiences with hundreds of boys and girls have helped me to understand myself and others better.

Will my children and their children have a place to go to find these values? It is the decision of today that will shape the values of tomorrow's youth. Please give consideration to my plea and keep the wilderness area as it is. Let's make sure our youth can first find the forest through trees and not surrounded by commercial developments. Thank you very much.

Mr. BARING. Thank you.

The next speaker will be Mr. Ives.

STATEMENT OF ROBERT T. IVES, MATHEMATICIAN, HARVEY MUDD COLLEGE, CLAREMONT, CALIF.

Mr. IVES. My name is Robert T. Ives. I am a mathematician at Harvey Mudd College in Claremont, but I am speaking only for myself. I have hiked on most of the trails in the wilderness area both in winter and in summer.

I would like to begin by expressing my gratitude to Congress for the constructive actions it has taken in the last two sessions to preserve portions of our country in their natural state and to correct some of the blunders we have made either consciously or by neglect in our resource management. I refer to the Wilderness Act and to the Land and Water Conservation Act of the 88th Congress, as well as to bills passed in the present Congress to remove the clutter that shields.

our roads from the countryside and to abate pollution of our waters and of the air we breathe. I hope we shall look back to this as the beginning of a time of increased attention to our heavy responsibilities for the maintenance and preservation of our natural environment.

What happens will come as the result of many hearings such as this to decide the fates of specific tracts of land. I hope you will deliberate with all possible gravity, for this will be a test of the effectiveness of the protection the year-old Wilderness Act can provide to the lands of our wilderness system.

What will be your criteria? The flow of dollars to or from the surrounding communities? The opportunity to build a road where there was none, and thereby "open up the country"? Comparisons under competing proposals of that statistical hybrid, the man-day? Please use great caution, for such reasoning in the past has left us with many of the problems we have today.

The things that most matter seem the most resistant to statistical expression. What parameter can we assign to a group of lemon lilies, swaying in a forest clearing; to the leap of bighorn sheep; to the crouching trees of timberline or to the rough red bark of the pine in the last light of day?

You have heard testimony that we can have all this and still meet the demands of mass recreation for the skier. A road might be built, but only for winter use. Lifts would be placed, but only apart from the centers of summer use. Few trees would be cut since the high slopes are bare. Ninety percent of the area would be untouched.

This resembles a policy of 90 percent honesty. Where would they hide a great parking lot capable of holding 5,000 cars under the most unfavorable conditions of snow? Would all the construction and maintenance be restricted to the winter months when they claim the area is deserted? Would the commercial developers bear the cost of the access road or would they require a public agency to build it for them? In the latter case, how could one justify an attempt in the summer to bar the public from a road built with its own money? Should the area prove a commercial success, as would seem guaranteed, even with modest snow, next to southern California's well-populated metropolis, what would stop the extension of lifts and cleared runs to all the places that were to be left to the summer traveler? If it is hard to preserve a wilderness while it is whole, how much harder would it be to fight for one only 90 percent intact?

You have a critical decision to make. You can decide for mass recreation for San Gorgonio or you can retain the area as wilderness. What you cannot do is both. I urge you to reject this attack on the San Gorgonio Wilderness Area and, by so doing, to reaffirm the support of Congress for the Wilderness Act of 1964.

Thank you, gentlemen.

Mr. BARING. Thank you, sir.

Our next speaker will be Mr. Braverman.

Mrs. BRAVERMAN. I will present the statement of my husband, who is unable to be present today.

Mr. BARING. Very well, without objection, you may do so. It will be incorporated as if read in the interest of conserving time.

STATEMENT OF SYDELL BRAVERMAN, SECRETARY, BOARD OF DIRECTORS, deBENNEVILLE PINES CONFERENCE CENTER, PACIFIC SOUTHWEST DISTRICT, UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST ASSOCIATION, BUENA PARK, CALIF.

Mr. BRAVERMAN. Let us state, immediately, that our position is one of unalterable opposition to the proposed legislation. Our opposition stems not only from the nature of the programing at de Benneville Pines, an organization camp in the Barton Flats area of the U.S. Forest Service San Gorgonio District (the area with the secondheaviest concentration of organization camps in the United States), but also from the many other ways in which the members of our churches and fellowships have used and enjoyed the particular area under consideration in this proposed legislation.

Many of our member families send their children to Scout camps, Y camps or other camps in the Barton Flats area in addition to their participation in the programs at deBenneville Pines. They report to us that, almost without exception, each such group is taken into the area each camp session for an overnight camping and hiking trip to the top of Mount San Gorgonio.

In addition, many of our member families spend weekends or vacation time at one of the public campgrounds in the Barton Flats area, and consider a hike to Slushy Meadows, Dollar Lake, or even an overnight trip to the top of Mount San Gorgonio an essential part of the family recreation. They report to us that the same is true of the many other families they meet in the public campgrounds and that they often take these hikes and overnight camping trips in groups of several families.

The nature of the trails and campsites make such trips completely safe for either a family, a group of families, or a large group of young children with proper supervision.

Considering the frequency with which these public campgrounds are filled to capacity, and the number of organization camps in the Barton Flats area, this board cannot help but feel that the use of the area must be very heavy.

As a board of directors charged with the responsibility of operating an organization camp in the Barton Flats area, we have many objections to the proposed change in use of that part of the San Gorgonio Wilderness Área.

While we have not scheduled overnight camping trips and hikes to the top of Mount San Gorgonio as part of our programing we do have hikes to Slushy Meadows or Dollar Lake scheduled and as part of our leisure week and leisure weekend recommendations for our campers. (This last July 3 some of our leisure weekenders signed the Poop-Out Hill Forest Service register at 9:30 a.m. and found that they were signed in near the bottom of the fourth page for that day.)

Because de Benneville Pines rents its facilities to groups outside our own denomination, we do have camp groups that make wider use of the area than do the groups for whom we arrange the programing. Our concern is not only for the loss of use of the area we would