CONTENTS Hon. Roman C. Pucinski, a Representative in Congress from the State Mrs. Donna Allen, Washington representative, National Committee To Abolish the House Un-American Activities Committee____ Col. T. N. Dupuy, executive director, Historical Evaluation & Re- search Organization, accompanied by Murray Astarita, sales repre- sentative, Federal Government Sales Division, Recordak Corp---- Frank H. Weitzel, Acting Comptroller General, GAO, accompanied by Robert F. Keller, General Counsel, and Frederic H. Smith, Deputy Director, Accounting and Auditing Policy Staff, and Hassell B. Bell, Associate Director, Defense Auditing and Account- George E. Agree, executive director, National Committee for an Karney A. Brasfield, CPA, chairman of the Committee on Relations J. George Stewart, Architect of the Capitol, accompanied by Mario E. Miscellaneous: 1427 1441 1452 House committee staffs and salaries, July 1-December 31, 1964 1334 Bureau of the Budget Circular A-50, April 1, 1959, relating to execu- tive branch action on reports by the General Accounting Office on Letter, dated August 5, 1965, to Cochairman Monroney from Repre- sentative Widnall in reference to his previous testimony... Letter dated August 4, 1965, to Representative Widnall from the Act- 1414 Letter, dated July 28, 1965, from Acting Comptroller General Weitzel to the chairman of the House Committee on Government Operations ORGANIZATION OF CONGRESS WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 4, 1965 CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES, JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ORGANIZATION OF THE CONGRESS, Washington, D.C. The joint committee met, pursuant to recess, at 10:05 a.m., in room S-228, the old Supreme Court Chamber, the Capitol, Representative Ray J. Madden (cochairman of the joint committee) presiding. Present: Senator Case and Representatives Madden, Griffin, and Hall. Also present: W. DeVier Pierson, chief counsel; George Meader, associate counsel; Melvin W. Sneed, staff assistant; and Nicholas A. Masters, research consultant. Cochairman MADDEN. The committee will come to order. Cochairman Monroney is tied up with the senatorial committee this morning and it will be impossible for him to be here. Our first witness this morning will be Congressman Roman Pucinski, of Illinois. Congressman Pucinski, you can proceed in whatever way you would like. You have a statement, I see. STATEMENT OF HON. ROMAN C. PUCINSKI, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS Representative PUCINSKI. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. May I, at the very outset, take this opportunity to congratulate you and the members of this joint committee for affording both the Members of Congress and all interested Americans an excellent forum from which to discuss the basic problems facing the Congress of the United States. It has been my privilege to follow the work of your committee with great interest and, so far as I am able to determine, this is the first opportunity in several years we have had to participate in a very detailed dialog on the strengths and weaknesses of our legislative process at the Federal level. You, Mr. Chairman, and the members of this distinguished committee deserve our very deepest gratitude for the time and sacrifice each of you has made. And as a Member of this Congress I know what it means to give up time from your office to attend these committee hearings. It has been my privilege to serve in the House of Representatives for the past 7 years. During this time I have recognized the vitality of our legislative process. But I have also observed firsthand its weak nesses. 1331 May I respectfully submit, Mr. Chairman, my own conclusions based on service in Congress under three Presidents: one a Republican and two Democrats. May I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that your committee give serious consideration to what in many instances would appear to be a declining role on the part of the legislative branch of Government in developing and drafting legislation on which the Congress must act. Under our Constitution, the National Congress is a coordinate branch of Government-coordinate with the executive and the judiciary. Yet, Mr. Chairman, much too often we find the executive branch presenting to the legislative branch of Government proposed legislation which has been written by one of the executive agencies. It would be my hope that this committee would give very serious consideration to the establishment of a substantially increased professional staff for legislative committees so that all legislation would be written here on the Hill and then submitted to the executive for its comments and critical analysis. I am mindful of the paradox which exists in our Republic in that while our Constitution provides for the separation of responsibility between the executive, the legislative, and the judicial bran ches of Government, under our unique political system, the head of the executive branch-namely, the President-is also the head of the majority party in power. It thus becomes difficult to draw any significant lines between where the President's constitutional relationship to the Congress ends and where his responsibility as the leader of his political party begins. I am not suggesting that we change this system. Indeed, the fact that the President serves simultaneously as the head of his political party, gives strength to our system and the necessary forward thrust to the democratic process of our Republic, especially when his own party enjoys a majority in both Chambers of Congress. But in order to maintain greater constitutional balance between the legislative and executive, it is my hope that this committee will recommend the establishment of more effective legislative committee staffs so that the President may continue to exercise his powers both as the Chief Executive and leader of his party in recommending broad guidelines for his philosophy and program, but through these professional staffs, the legislative branch of Government will be charged with the responsibility of translating these guidelines into workable legislation. In other words, Mr. Chairman, I do not believe executive agencies should be writing legislation. We can save the people of America vast sums of money and, I am sure, make Government substantially more effective, if the legislative branch will construct its own legislation. Too often, agencies write in language so couched in legal mumbo-jumbo that it is not until after the legislation is enacted into law that its true meaning becomes apparent. I don't believe there is a Member of Congress who hasn't wondered from time to time why certain provisions have been included in proposed legislation, only to find out later, after the legislation becomes enacted and operative, what the true meaning of that mysterious language really was. Congress cannot assume its full responsibility within the framework of its very limited staffs, loyal as they may be. This is not to say that I am criticizing present committee staffs. I frequently marvel at the fact that most committee staffs are able to accomplish as much as they do within the framework of their very limited facilities. Nor, Mr. Chairman, am I suggesting that committee staff's should be enlarged so that the chairmen of the committees who would want to use their staffs for patronage would have more people available for such purpose. It has been my observation that in most instances-not all, and I am mindful that some committee assignments have been distributed on a patronage basis-but most committee assignments on both sides of the aisle are made for the most part on a professional basis. This is laudable and we need only visit with any committee on either side of the Congress to see how many truly dedicated and professional people serve on the staffs of these committees. I am suggesting a substantial increase in committee staffs of professional people because it is becoming abundantly clear that within the framework of our present facilities, more and more the legislative branch of our Government must rely on the executive branch as the basis for information on which to judge legislation. This indeed creates somewhat of a conflict, Mr. Chairman. Very often, as you know and the members of this committee know, we have to seek from the agencies the statistics and too often these statistics by some miracle always come up supporting the agency's views in the legislation that it has proposed. It would seem to me that the Congress ought to have an independent source to draw its own studies, its own statistics, its own analysis. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would be perfectly willing to have the House Administration Committee, as regards the House, and the appropriate committee in the Senate, as regards the Senate, pass on all professional appointments to their respective committees over and above the staffs these committees now have. I would also not hesitate to suggest that in developing a sound career service to serve exclusively the legislative branch of Government, all new positions would be filled through a system of civil service to be established by the Congress or through the General Accounting Office. I stress this point because I want to make clear it is not my intention to create new jobs merely for the sake of making more positions available to the Congress, but rather because of my sincere desire to make the standing committees of Congress more totally independent of the executive branch of Government in drafting and evaluating legislation. Mr. Chairman, why do I dwell on this subject? It is because of my conviction that with the fantastic growth of our Government, if the legislative branch is to serve its role effectively, it must have competent staffs to help in guiding this intricate process. I know that much of our information is now supplied by the Legislative Reference Service at the Library of Congress. I hasten to add that these dedicated public servants have too often been the backbone and mainstay of our efforts and without their thoroughly professional assistance this Congress could not operate. But there is not a Member who does not recognize how thoroughly overworked, and, yes, underpaid, are these highly competent professionals employed by the Legislative Reference Service. We can no longer expect these people to keep up with the massive requests being |