Labor submits that the remedy should take the form of an amendment to the joint resolution. I urge your committee to incorporate in the joint resolution the following amendment:

Provided, however, That whenever any part of the funds herein appropriated are allocated and expended on building or construction projects, such funds shall be transferred to P. W. A. and expended under existing P. W. A. regulations.

In conclusion, I want to make it perfectly clear that my statement and my recommendation reflect the wishes of organized labor throughout the building and construction industries, and of organized labor generally. It has been said in the press that a recommendation such as this may have been inspired by the Public Works Administration. Such statements are without any foundation whatsoever. We have not been in communication with any official at P. W. A. in formulating this proposal at any time or in any way. The proposal originated with the building- and construction-trades department of the American Federation of Labor, and has been supported by the American Federation of Labor and every organization affiliated with it. I want to incorporate in the record the following telegram sent by President Green of the American Federation of Labor and the officers of the building- and construction-trades department of the American Federation of Labor to every Member of the House of Representatives on February 15, 1938:

The American Federation of Labor and the building and construction trades department respectfully request that you support the following amendment to H. J. Resolution 596:

"Provided, however, That whenever any part of the funds herein appropriated are allocated and expended on building or construction projects, such funds shall be transferred to P. W. A. and expended under existing P. W. A. regulations." WILLIAM GREEN,

President, American Federation of Labor.
Jos. A. McINERNEY,

President, Building and Construction Trades Department.

HERBERT RIVERS,

Secretary-Treasurer, Building and Construction Trades Department. On behalf of building labor and organized labor generally I urge your committee to give favorable consideration to the proposed amendment.

In addition to that, I want to read the following telegram:

Hon. ALVA B. ADAMS,

Senate Office Building,

Washington, D. C.

FEBRUARY 17, 1938.

The national legislative conference of the American Federation of Labor, which is composed of representatives of the 104 national and international organizations affiliated to the American Federation of Labor and which also includes the 21 standard railroad organizations, requests that the members of the Senate Appropriation Committee incorporate the following amendment in House Joint Resolution 596:

"Provided, however, That whenever any part of the funds herein appropriated are allocated and expended on building or construction projects, such funds. shall be transferred to Public Works Administration and expended under existing Public Works Administration regulations."

This amendment does not interfere with the granting of relief, does not earmark any funds, but simply protects conditions built up after years of effort by labor organizations.

WILLIAM C. HUSHING,

Chairman, American Federation of Labor Legislative Conference.

Charge A. F. of L.

GILBERT HYATT,

Secretary.

There is one short article here which I should like to read for the benefit of the committee:

BUILDING TRADES UNIONS PROTEST TO MAYOR OF NEW YORK AGAINST W. P. A. CONSTRUCTION OF SCHOOLS

Building-trades labor is vigorously protesting to the mayor against_the_contemplated Works Progress Administration construction of schools in New York City. In his request for $180,000,000 of Federal funds to be used largely for Works Progress Administration work, two schools are mentioned, the first time, complete erection of such edifices has been contemplated under Works Progress Administration. The Building and Construction Trades Council has given the mayor an emphatic protest, which has been endorsed by various locals as well as employers' associations.

CHARGES OF WORKS PROGRESS ADMINISTRATION CHISELERS

The charge is made that workers on Works Progress Administration construction also work for private employers on their "off" time and thus deprive nonrelief mechanics of jobs. Typical of the protests is the following letter to the mayor from Bricklayers Union No. 1, of Brooklyn, a copy of which was sent to News and Opinion by its secretary, Arthur Bicknell.

"The membership of the Bricklayers' Union, Local No. 1, Brooklyn, N. Y., have recently been informed that the board of education of this city, in conjunction with the Works Progress Administration contemplated the erection of two public-school buildings in this city, said schools to be erected exclusively by the Works Progress Administration employees.

"The membership of this union is of the opinion that should such a procedure be carried through, it will be direct discrimination against the members of this local, who, possibly through no fault of their own, are unable to honestly establish a relief status, but who, at the time the schools are being erected may be sadly in need of a job in order to be able not only to support themselves and families, but as well to pay a tax bill, interest on a mortgage, or an insurance premium, which, owing to their thrift and diligence in the past, is a draw-back to them today.

"The situation as we see it has many angles, inasmuch as the Works Progress Administration worker, after completing his shift on the Works Progress Administration, has a right to enter private employment and invariably does so, returning to the Works Progress Administration when his shift starts again, and by so doing possibly deprives a man not on the Works Progress Administration of the opportunity to work. This fact cannot be disputed. On the other hand, should the Works Progress Administration proceed as planned, it will simply mean that a fence will be built around such projects, thereby depriving a man who is not on the Works Progress Administration, but who possibly may have been removed from same as 'nonessential-nonrelief, ' of the right to seek or obtain work thereon, regardless of the fact that the door is still open for the Works Progress Administration employee to work in private industry during what is known as his vacation, often times at a wage scale lower that that paid by the Works Progress Administration for the same type of work.

"We, therefore, as members of this local union, and citizens of New York, vigorously protest any such action taking place.'

MAYOR'S REPLY TO B. T. E. A.

This association also protested and received from the mayor the following reply which seems to indicate the Works Progress Administration school work may go ahead in spite of protest:

"The city will proceed with its normal construction work to the extent of its financial resources under the usual system of contract. Only on such projects which otherwise would not be constructed will we avail ourselves of Works Progress Administration.

"I appreciate your frankness in writing me. On the other hand I want to be equally frank and say that I expect the cooperation of all concerned. We have a difficult problem and we must work together on it."

Senator HAYDEN. The last correspondence there shows just where we are "between the devil and the deep blue sea." If the plan had been adopted which was originally recommended by the Presidentthat a security wage be adopted so that a man would get, say, $50

a month, and would have to work a month to get it-he would not then have had spare time to go out and compete with the union man. But, instead of that, the thing was switched over so that he receives the same hourly wage that a union man would get for that much work, and he works that many hours, and then he has the rest of the month to go out and compete with the union man.

You have a hard proposition there, whichever way you look at it. Mr. BATES. You should stop the W. P. A. from letting him work on W. P. A. any more if he goes out on private industry and gets a job. Why do they not remove him from the rolls?

Senator HAYDEN. The theory is that they are very glad to have him go and get this other work, because it helps to support him and his family. What I am getting at is that whichever angle of it you take it is tough. If you adopt the security wage, and make the man work a month for the $50, then you have spoiled the union hourly rate, because he is working for an hourly rate which is less than the union hourly rate. On the other hand, if you make him work just the number of hours necessary to earn the $50, then he has time to go out and take a union man's job away from him.

Mr. BATES. When a W. P. A. man goes out and works in competition with a man who is not on the relief roll, he should be stopped from enjoying relief the next month.

Senator HAYDEN. There is something to that.

Mr. BATES. That could be very easily done.

Senator HAYDEN. It is pretty hard to check up on it, however.

Mr. BATES. It is not at all hard to check up on it. Our organization knows where he works. They have knowledge of it, and they report it. Senator ADAMS. If he is not in need of relief, he should go right off the roll. There is no question about that.

Mr. BATES. They do not take him off.

Senator ADAMS. They should.

Mr. BATES. What the present program does is this: When the W. P. A. goes out and builds schools, it places the relief worker in a preferential class over a man who is just as badly off as the relief worker so far as employment, money conditions, and everything else is concerned. If you are going to build buildings in a community and have them built by handy men and unskilled labor, such as they are doing, and let the skilled mechanic who lives in that community stand on the sidewalk and watch these buildings go up, and he cannot get a job on them because he is not on relief and cannot get on relief, it is very unfair to him.

Let me tell you further how it works. They promised us that they would not do it, but here is what they have done in the past year and a half:

They find a city that makes a request for the approval of a W. P. A. project-it might be a school, or it might be a library-and in order that the W. P. A. will be free from any control of the skilled workers who work on that project, they will approve the project with the understanding that the city will furnish the material and take care of the wages for what skilled mechanics are necessary to be employed on the project. The sponsor of the project then will work the men on relief rolls who are unskilled mechanics and handy men along with one or two semiskilled mechanics who will go on the job and work under scab conditions. They complete those projects in a haphazard, unmechanical manner, and the man who pays taxes in that community

stands on the sidewalk expecting to get work on this school, and cannot get any kind of employment on it.

Senator ADAMS. I listened to the argument on that matter in the House yesterday. That argument was made there.

Mr. BATES. So far as we are concerned, we want relief for those men who need it, but we want the W. P. A. to stop building buildings and doing that work by unskilled labor and handy men.

Senator HAYDEN. I rather think the effect of the amendment would simply be that they would not turn anything over to the Public Works Administration. I have watched rival bureaus here in Washington for a long time.

Senator ADAMS. You have watched the cooperation between the departments?

Senator HAYDEN. And there is not any. If they are prohibited from spending money on a building, they are not going to give it to somebody else to spend. They are going to find some other way to spend it.

Mr. BATES. I want the committee to know that I am not injecting myself into any fight between the W. P. A. Administration and the P. W. A. Administration. I want the W. P. A. stopped from building buildings with handy men and unskilled labor at a wage scale less than the wage scale paid to building-trades mechanics.

Senator HAYDEN. So far as I am concerned, the chairman of this committee will certify that what I have tried to do around here is to keep the Public Works Administration alive. I did help to do that for 2 years. I am in thorough accord with you that if there is to be any kind of substantial work done in the United States, and we want to give the taxpayer his money's worth, the job should be let by contract, and the labor should be paid the union scale for doing the work. Then you will get a job that is a capital asset, and you will have something to show for it afterward. That is why I made a fight here for 2 years, and kept the W. P. A. alive for 2 years longer than it was supposed to be; but they finally put it out of the picture last year.

I am just talking about this as a practical matter. The effect of the amendment would simply be that there would not be a dollar turned over to them. That is the way it would work, just as surely as it could be. The War Department does not give the Navy Department any money. The Agricultural Department does not turn over any money to the Interior Department. If they get their hands on that money, they are going to find a way to spend it; and if they are prohibited from spending it in one way, they will spend it in another

way.

Mr. GALLAGHER. Why cannot provision be made, Senator, that even if the W. P. A. did the work, they should do it by contract? Senator HAYDEN. Their theory is, of course, that they have certain men who are certified to them y the relief authorities of the various communities who need work, and they are going to try to find work for them, and that those are the only men they can find any work for. So they say, "If we cannot find it on one job, we shall have to find it on another; but we are responsible only for persons certified to us on relief." So there would be no way, as a practical matter, to get any work for a union man out of this money if we should adopt that amendment. That is my guess. I am just judging by human nature. Mr. BATES. All you have to do is to put that amendment in, and, if the W. P. A. does any work, let it be governed by the P. W. A.

regulations so far as the skilled mechanics are concerned. That is all we want. That is the solution of it. We are not asking that the money be earmarked and given to the P. W. A. All we want is, in the case of a school building that in the normal course of events would be erected by a community, and the men who live in that community would get the work, that they shall be governed by the regulations on public work that is done by the P. W. A.

Senator HAYDEN. I think your statement is perfectly sound; but the point I am trying to make is that they should not do anything that would otherwise be done. That is Mayor LaGuardia's answer that it is work that would not otherwise be done. If it is work that would otherwise be done in the normal course of building in a community, of course they ought not to have anything to do with it.

I have had this same controversy at home with reference to the purchase of equipment for road work, and things like that. There are road contractors who have equipment, and there are road contractors who employ union labor to do the work. If we buy road equipment for the W. P. A., and let them take that equipment and use it, it looks as though we are taking work away from men who normally engage in those trades, and from contractors who are normally engaged in the business. The answer they always give to us is, "The work we are doing is work that otherwise would not be done." That is where the whole argument is: Is it work that otherwise would not be done?

Mr. BATES. Well, I doubt it.

Senator HAYDEN. That is where we get to the crux of the thing. Mr. BATES. I can picture the exact condition that exists in many, many cities; but I have not any desire to take up the time of the committee. I might say this, however:

In Atlanta, Ga., there are two schoolhouses being erected. The only persons employed by the W. P. A. in that city who are skilled mechanics are two members employed in a supervisory capacity. All the mechanics employed on this schoolhouse are handy men, or men who are not qualified, the greater majority of them. When these supervisors complain about that condition, and try to have these men placed on work that they can do-laborer's work-and have them removed from the skilled work, they are brought up on the carpet, and these men are put back to work, doing the work that the skilled mechanic should do, and the skilled mechanic is standing across the street and cannot get a job.

Senator HAYDEN. Jerry-built structures like that are liable to fall down some of these days.

Mr. BATES. That is not an exception to the rule. It is what is generally done.

I thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator ADAMS. We are much obliged to you.