Dr. MUIRHEAD. Another provision in the bill before the committee states that both colleges shall be located on the same campus, and I should like to respond to that, if I may. The committee, I am sure, is already familiar with the passage from the report of the President's Committee which says this on that particular point:

The committee strongly urges that each of the two institutions it has recommended, the community college, the college of arts and sciences, should have its own faculty, administrative staff and physical plant. While there would be advantages in locating the two institutions reasonably close to each other in order that certain facilities such as libraries could be utilized in common, the administrative union of the two facilities into a single institution would, in the opinion of the committee, seriously compromise one or the other or, perhaps, even both. I think it is fair also to point out that the question of the relative autonomy of the community and vocational college could affect its eligibility for Federal assistance because the language of the Higher Educational Facilities Act states that if a branch of an institution of higher education offering 4 or more years of higher education is located in a community it must be located in a community different from that in which its parent institution is located. In other words, the act provides that in order for a community college to be supported under the Higher Education Facilities Act it must have its own autonomy or if it is a branch of an institution it should be located in a different community.

You were kind enough to ask for my response to the question of tuition and fees. It seems to me that the statement which I did prepare for the committee, the report of the President's Committee, clearly underscores that the tuition and fees charged at either the community college or the 4-year college should be modest and nominal at best, and I was quite impressed this morning, as I am sure you were, by the report from Mr. McKee concerning the rather nominal tuition charged in the community college which he heads.

I would be pleased to respond to other questions if the committee so desires.

Mr. DOWDY. You were not here the other day?

Dr. MUIRHEAD. I was not here.

Mr. DowDY. There was this question of the fees or tuition which did come up the other day. I think it is the impression of the committee, or at least the members of the committee thought, that a small fee would be better than no fee, and that it should not be large. I think this $135 is a pretty good thing to shoot at so that it won't be too large, and anyone can go if he wishes; whereas people won't put any value on it at all if it won't cost anything. That is one of the troubles.

Dr. MUIRHEAD. Yes.

Mr. DOWDY. You mentioned the President's Committee's report about the fees, and I imagine that $135 would be in line with it. Dr. MUIRHEAD. Yes, it would.

Mr. DOWDY. But there is another thing I noticed in this report, which is printed in the Senate committee hearings, and I do not know that I understand it exactly. It is on page 52, where reference is made to a noncompetitive scholarship program to be provided for students in these areas. I imagine it covers everything. What exactly would be meant by a noncompetitive scholarship program, so that everybody would be eligible for it?

Dr. MUIRHEAD. Well, in the Senate report there is some discussion of a noncompetitive scholarship program which has as its principal aim making it possible for young people in the District who find it necessary to attend other colleges and university offering programs that the 4-year college might not offer, to do so with public support, and to do so with what is referred to here as a noncompetitive scholarship. In other words, the general aim being just as the chairman has stated a moment ago, that we do everything possible to provide higher education opportunities to these young people, and that we do not let the finances stand in the way of having them get the higher education.

Mr. Dowdy. The report I am talking about is the one from the Committee on Public Higher Education in the District of Columbia. The committee was created by President Kennedy in September 1963, and its report was sent to the President in June of 1964. That is the one I am talking about.

Now, in connection with this noncompetitive scholarship program, there is also a recommendation that the student be paid to go to school; in other words, give him a grant to go to school. That is going even further than making a free school for him, is it not?

Dr. MUIRHEAD. As I understand the recommendation, it includes a grant to the institution, the grant to the institution being made on the basis that the payment of his tuition does not necessarily cover the cost of instruction at that institution, and that the institution should be reimbursed hopefully to the level of the cost of his instruction through a grant to the institution and a tuition payment to the student by way of a scholarship.

Mr. DowDY. It says a student should receive a grant in such a manner as is required to enable him to attend the institution. Dr. MUIRHEAD. Yes.

Mr. Dowdy. That would be any institution anywhere he chose. Dr. MUIRHEAD. Yes. And, as you undoubtedly know, Mr. Chairman, this was suggested as rather an interim recommendation until such time as the program for the 4-year college was in place, and it will take some time, of course, for that program to take full effect, and this recommendation would make it possible for high school graduates in the District to go to 4-year institutions in the interim period prior to the establishment of a 4-year college here and to do so by way of a scholarship program.

Mr. Dowdy. I believe your office, the Office of Education, does have jurisdiction over Howard University, and I think it would be helpful to us to have a fairly complete background of information about the curriculum there, its staff, its enrollment, the cost of its operation and its present physical plant, and matters of that kind as a matter of comparison.

Can you get that for us?

Dr. MUIRHEAD. We would be pleased to provide that for the record, Mr. Chairman. (See appendix, pp. 166-210.)

Mr. DOWDY. Last week I sent a letter over asking for that information. We will hold the record open until Friday to receive it.

We asked you for the square-foot cost per student that you could recommend, and the estimated construction program to take care of 2,500 students, the operating costs and other questions.

Have you been able to get that information for us?

Dr. MUIRHEAD. Mr. Chairman, we did not receive your letter until yesterday, and we will be pleased to respond to the questions that you have raised.

I think it is probably proper for me to suggest that what we can provide for you are estimates of comparable situations in the Nation. I think it would not be fair for us to say that this is the recommended cost for the District of Columbia college, but we can provide some yardsticks, if you will, that, perhaps, will be useful to you in the record of your committee.

Mr. DowDY. I am wondering, in the testimony we have heard here, whether this proposed college of arts and sciences is a duplication of Howard University. Would it be a duplication of the publicly supported school? Do we want to make it possible to provide for more students; if so, why wouldn't it be more advisable to enlarge Howard University to take care of these additional students than to have an entirely new and separate setup, tax supported?

Dr. MUIRHEAD. Well, I can respond again in terms of the recommendation of the President's Committee, a group of distinguished citizens who gave serious consideration to the problems of establishing both a community college and a 4-year college, and they did address themselves to this question as to whether or not it would be advisable to expand Howard University, whether or not it might be advisable to suggest to Howard University that this might be part of their mission.

The Committee concluded that Howard University does have a very special mission. Howard University aspires to be an outstanding national university and has that mission and, possibly

Mr. DowDY. Congress established Howard University, and it did not say anything about a mission like that. It says in the charter act, that "there shall be established and is established in the District of Columbia a university for the eduation of youth in the liberal arts and sciences under the name, style, and title of the Howard Unisity." It does not say anything about being a national institution or the aspirations of it. It says in the law that establishes it what it is for.

Dr. MUIRHEAD. That is quite correct, Mr. Chairman, but the university has grown in stature and has grown in its own achievements over the years, and it does now stand in place as a national university. I would suggest in a situation like this that it would be well for the committee to discuss this matter with the administration of Howard University.

Mr. DOWDY. I think it should be, because in other words, if Congress established it, I wonder who determines the mission of the school. Would that not be done by the Congress?

Now, in reading this report of this committee, the President's Committee on Higher Education in the District of Columbia, the statement is made therein that, as you mentioned, Howard University feels that its basic mission is national and, more recently, international. But, since Congress chartered the school, who else could determine its mission, and who gave it an international mission rather than, as Congress said, it should be a university for the education of the youth in the District of Columbia in the liberal arts and sciences?

Dr. MUIRHEAD. I expect that Howard University, as any other private university, would respond by saying that its mission in very