lation, if indeed it does exist, I am persuaded that such a plan would in fact greatly relieve many of the nutrition problems we now have in Florida and in other parts of the Nation.

I would like to digress from my prepared statement just a moment. I did receive the invitation to testify before you before I actually received a copy of the law-of the proposed legislation, and in my thinking and in my reflecting here, as I reflected on the USDA food stamp program, I was not aware of the bill that was to be presented. I feel that as we look at this proposed bill and as we look at the idea behind the use of food stamps, I think perhaps the bill that is prepared would meet that need.

I would be negligent if I did not call to your attention a fact which you may be well aware of, this being, the lack of sufficient funds on the part of the individual is not the only aspect of nutrition problems. We have many seniors with ample resources who are suffering from malnutrition simply because they no longer are motivated to prepare well balanced meals. As an example, Mrs. "X" has an income of $10,000 a year from her husband's estate; she has been a widow for 5 years and lives alone in a condominium on Miami Beach. During her married life she had eight very healthy children, who are all married, very successful and live in various parts of the country with their own families. For years Mrs. "X" had prepared on the average of 25 meals per day which means that she prepared 25 separate meals-she prepared meals for 25 different servings-which were well planned and nutritionally sound. Now that Mrs. "X" is alone, the challenge she once had is no longer present. We find that the eating habits of Mrs. "X" are significantly changed. A daily menu now consists of coffee and toast for breakfast, a soft drink and a peanut butter sandwich for lunch and a bowl of dry cereal and a glass of milk for dinner. With this type of menu day after day there are adverse biological changes in Mrs. "X" which reduce her chances for continued good health and well-being.

Although the above case may be hypothetical it does reflect a problem that is very real; it illustrates the tremendous need that exists for a program that will assure that Mrs. "X" has the opportunity to have at least one well balanced nutritionally sound meal per day. Not only should such a program provide nutritional well-being but should also provide for the sociological interaction with her peers which is an absolute need for the older person living alone.

I'd like to go on the record as being 100 percent in favor of this bill that has been prepared by Congressman Pepper. I would also like to congratulate Mr. Pepper as the architect of this particular bill. I think if this bill were, in fact, made into law, that we could realize a significant reduction in the number of admissions of persons 65 and over into our medically related institutions around the State and around the country; such as hospitals, nursing homes and mild termed convalescent care facilities.

Although I do not have the statistics in front of me, it has come to my attention that there is a tremendous percentage of our older people who are admitted to nursing homes, who are admitted to hospitals, who are there for malnutrition. This malnutrition has brought about some secondary type of illness.

Indeed, there would be a tremendous increase in the physiological and the sociological well being of our senior citizens. And this statement is not mere speculation, gentlemen, it's in fact-it's true. We have witnessed this right here in this room that we're sitting in right now. I think one of the greatest experiences I've ever had was the opportunity of being here at a meal with these older folks and sitting, and watching their faces and watching the glow in them is just wonderful.

There's one other area that I'd like to touch on just a moment, and this is the need I feel to substantiate what Congressman Pepper has indicated: the need to involve private industry in it. I believe that government has a lot say government has overstepped its bounds very often, but I believe that this is a place where private industry would be most effective. We had this feeling several months ago and through the Older Americans Act-Title III through my office; we did find an experimental project in the Jacksonville area where we did use a private firm as a third party contract in preparing hot meals for seniors in three situations; in medically related facilities, in a highrise facility where seniors were in group living, and also in the neighborhood living situation. And we found that this was tremendously successful. This company that we have talked with has developed a program where they are going to provide some type of a vending machine where actually a person can receive a nutritionally sound meal from a vending machine.

There is also another area that they're looking at very carefully now-and I'm terribly excited about this-this is what they refer to as "Project Pantry." This is where an individual can purchase once a week a box about three-fourths the size of a shoe box and can place this in her freezer. And in that shoe box are packages of food that are frozen in these containers that you can now buy prepared corn in; just put it in a boiling pot of water.

I think what I'm saying is that we need to emphasize, we need to take a very close look at what private industry has to offer. And contained within this bill, as has been suggested, the provision that private enterprise; that this type of organization can be involved. Thank you.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Thank you very much, Mr. McLoud, for your most helpful statement. I was just observing, when you described to us the "Project Pantry," that it is extraordinary reading that we have seemed to have been able, technologically and scientifically, to put together adequate packaging of nourishing meals to send men to the moon, but have not reflected that same technological capacity and skill to make it possible to feed the people of our own country here on earth. And perhaps we ought to get some of the people who are busy in the great NASA installations here in the State of Florida to direct a little of their talent and expertise toward helping put together some programs that will make it possible to feed some of the older citizens who live in the State of Florida. That's just a footnote of an observation.

In view of the fact, Mr. McLoud, that you here in Florida have experimented with nutritional programs for the elderly, what have been some of the principal headaches that you have run into, what are the problems, and what are the thorny aspects of this kind of an enterprise?

Mr. McLOUD. I think the problem that constitutes the entire thorn bush, sir, is the lack of funds. I believe that we have the expertise; we have demonstrated, we have experimented, we have researched it. I think we have a program, as a matter of fact I would daresay, sir, that if funds were made available to the metropolitan centers in Dade County today, within 10 days I believe we could be feeding 5,000 people in this type program. I believe that this metropolitan group could be given that challenge and they could develop a model that you could have your colleagues come and see and witness before the bill was even enacted.

Mr. BRADEMAS. So you are, in effect, saying that the kind of programs which Congressman Pepper's bill contemplates for the entire Nation have, at least on the basis of your experience here in Florida, been proved workable if you had enough money to carry them out?

Mr. McLOUD. Exactly, sir. As a matter of fact, as far as title III of the Older Americans Act is concerned and, of course, with the amendments to that act, there are certain funds that are made available to the States to carry out the title III programs. When the title IV program expired here in the Miami area, of course, we had a great deal of dialog with persons here concerning the possibility of using title III funds to continue, if not fully, a part of this program. And during our June meeting of the Bureau on Aging, we were able to convince the powers that be, the authorizing authority, that this program here in Dade County needed to continue. Just as a last moment type of thing, we granted to the Dade County Senior Centers some $23,000 to carry this program for another 6 months. So, we feel that just the dollars and cents is what's necessary to continue.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Mr. McLoud, I was interested to see that you called for participation of private industry in the program. As I understand Congressman Pepper's bill, that would be quite possible, not by direct grants from the State agencies to private profitmaking organizations, but rather, as I understand it, Mr. Pepper, the State agency could grant funds to the metropolitan senior centers, for example, here in Miami which in turn could contract out to a private profitmaking organization the responsibility for providing the meals.

The Chair would now like to call on the distinguished author of the bill Congressman Pepper, for any questions he would like to put to Mr. McLoud.

Mr. PEPPER. Mr. McLoud, I want to commend you for your support of this measure and what you've been doing in the cause of the senior citizens of this State. I've met with you on many occasions on public affairs like this and we all know that you are trying your best to be helpful to the people.

Is it your conclusion, as a State official in charge of the older Americans programs for the State of Florida, that this measure proposes a program that would be meaningful to the senior citizens of this State and which, in your opinion and out of experience you've had, would be a workable program?

Mr. McLOUD. Very much, so, sir.

Mr. PEPPER. Do you like the idea of flexibility so that various types of sponsors may be employed, and either public institutions or private enterprise may be brought into the program?

Mr. McLOUD. Very much so, sir. As a matter of fact, I might comment on that just a moment. The firm that we acted with in the Jacksonville areas, they were so tremendously interested in this program that they put up $20,000 of their own money. They installed a freezer unit. They bought two vans and equipment for delivery, and the use of micro-ovens and such; it's this type thing. I believe that if we can involve private industry that they would be willing to go that extra mile or 2 miles in order to make sure that this is a successful program.

Mr. PEPPER. Is it your conclusion, then, from your experience, that if the Federal Government would take the initiative in inaugurating this program the State and local interest, public and private, would also cooperate in making the program a success?

Mr. McLOUD. I have no doubt of this.

Mr. PEPPER. Thank you.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Mr. Hansen.

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

And our thanks to you, Mr. McLoud, for a very helpful testimony. We're fortunate to have someone who has the experience that you have in the various experimental programs that can develop the kind of information that will usefully plan programs contemplated by this

bill.

I was interested in your discussion of the motivation that might bring an elderly person to the center to take advantage of a meal that is prepared, and your example of the widow who had adequate financial means but still was not motivated to prepare a well-balanced meal for herself. Now, my question is: Will the existence of this kind of a program with the meal available at a center reasonably close provide the kind of motivation that she would require to bring her to the center for the purpose of having at least one meal a day?

Mr. McLOUD. I would say yes. But I would also qualify this by saying that I don't believe that you can open up a center and have meals available and simply let it go at this. I think that there is going to be a tremendous amount of outreach necessary to let this woman know that this center is available, to let her know that it's not a center just where the economically deprived person is going to be for a free meal. I think we need to establish very clearly that this is a social experience, that this is a community center, this is someplace where she can go where she can interact with her own peers; where she can have a meal where she perhaps can be useful in helping in the preparation of this meal. This is where I feel that we can gain tthe remotivation, if you will, of the individuals. I think this is the most important thing that we have found. The senior citizen is a very, very capable person. The senior citizen is constantly searching for some way to be useful regardless of what it might be, and I feel that this program is designed, if it's administered correctly on a local level, so that you can get the involvement of these older folks who are looking for something to do. Now, this woman does not require that this meal be supplemented for her. She just needs some place to go to be a part of the mainstream of living again. This is what she's looking for. And I think if some of our geratologists have mentioned effective use of her leisure time.

Mr. HANSEN. So what you're saying, if I understand it, is that the primary motivation that will bring elderly people to the center

to take advantage of the meal is perhaps not so much the meal itself and, in many cases, not the financial circumstances, but the opportunity to participate in some activity with other people and to play some kind of a useful part in that activity. Is that correct?

Mr. McLOUD. This is correct, sir.

Mr. HANSEN. So really, I think this is a point that shouldn't be missed since the mere establishment of the centers is not going to solve the problem; that it's going to take a great deal beyond thisMr. McLOUD. Very much so.

Mr. HANSEN (continuing). To reach these people and to make them feel that they are part of something that responds to their needs.

Mr. McLOUD. I feel that you will find in the testimony that will come later from those who are participating in the meal program here that the meal was an important part of the afternoon's activity, but it was just a part. That the social interaction, the getting together with their friends; that the ability to interact with each other was the most rewarding experience, and the meal was there, and it was great and it kept them healthy.

Mr. HANSEN. Now, could this interaction take place-could there be some kind of activity that would attract the participation of the elderly people without the meal? Well, how important is the meal?

Mr. McLOUD. I think the meal is very important in the area that we're talking about right now. Of course we have in operation throughout the State of Florida, oh, perhaps 40 recognized senior centers that are very active in providing services. I would say that perhaps only two of the centers have any type of activity where a meal is provided. Now, the center is there; the people do participate. We have a center in Daytona Beach and any time of the day or evening that you want to go into that center you'll find just a great number of people. It's interesting about once a week they have a covered dish where they prepare their own food and they bring it down to the center. So, the meal I feel is an important part of it, but it's not the absolute critical need within that center itself. It depends on what type of a center you're operating.

I believe that if we have the meals program; that the meals program in each of the centers, as we would hope to outreach in the State—at the present time, the centers are located in metropolitan areas because this is where we have been able to identify local resources to match it. Now, I can envision the centers with a 90 percent attending. I can envision the centers being set up in the rural areas of our State where these people are not involved with each other at all right now. It doesn't have to be any kind of an elaborate center. I think we can involve ourselves with the use of church buildings, of school buildings while they're not being used.

And I think that as a result of this meals program that we can bring about a greater interaction-we've been dwelling on that word "interaction," but it's so important here-that we can bring about a greater interaction of the rural elderly person out here in-like up into De Funiak Springs, or Chipley, or some of these places where unfortunately we're unable to fund a program because of the lack of local support that we have there. So I can see where this meals program in itself will generate some tremendous center activity not only in the metropolitan areas but in the rural areas.