Senator KENNEDY of New York. Do you think there is merit in the proposal for the 90 percent alternative as an incentive for attracting the kind of individual who will make teaching a career? I think we might wish to make a distinction between the VISTA volunteer who serves for a short time only and the corpsman who we hope will provide many years of service to the children in our slum schools.

Mr. GRAHAM. There are many corpsmen and university people who believe unless you have this 90 percent of pay rate at least in the second year these people will be drawn from the program before they are really doing the job. There is some feeling that some, you might recruit them and some you can for the first year, but that you can't hold them. Senator KENNEDY of New York. Mr. Graham, could you clarify for the subcommitee one point with respect to corpsmen? Assuming that a corpsman had an ÑDEA loan as an undergraduate, does his or her teaching experience as an intern qualify him or her for the forgiveness provisions of title II of NDEA?

Mr. GRAHAM. No, sir; it does not.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. It does not?
Could you give us a rationale and explanation?
Mr. GRAHAM. Yes, indeed.

Mr. SULLIVAN. Mr. Alford, will you respond to the rationale?

Mr. ALFORD. As I understand the reason for this, the intern is considered to be a part-time employee and, therefore, not eligible under the law. For the experienced teachers that are heading the teams, if they happen to have had an NDEA student loan, they would be eligible. Senator KENNEDY of New York. Senator Prouty was particularly interested in it, and I expect he will followup some other questions.

Could you supply for the record the number of such corpsmen who were currently serving in the organization?

Mr. ALFORD. With NDEA student loans? I did ask this of Teacher Corps administrators and I understand they have never asked this question of the Corps members so they do not have any idea of the number. Unless you would desire a survey on this question we would probably find it rather difficult to provide this kind of information. Senator KENNEDY of New York. Would it be difficult to ask people that question?

Mr. ALFORD. We could do it on a sampling basis, I think, and get some kind of information.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. I think it probably would be interesting.

Is there anything else that you would like to add, otherwise we will hear from Mr. Lillywhite.

Mr. SULLIVAN. I think not, unless Mr. Graham wanted to add something.

Mr. GRAHAM. There are some questions that were given to us to which we would like to respond if you would like the answers.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. I think you can send those in and we will place them in the record.

(The information referred to above follows:)

MEMORANDUM FROM OFFICE OF EDUCATION, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, EDUCATION, AND WELFARE, RE NDEA LOAN FORGIVENESS

NDEA loan forgiveness does not apply to Teacher Corps interns because they are not regarded as having assumed full responsibility of teaching in the class

room. Theoretically loan forgiveness does apply to the Teacher Corps experienced teacher. As the basic requirement for an experienced teacher to qualify for the Teacher Corps is a master's degree and five years of teaching experience, very few of these experienced teachers are still receiving loan forgiveness. The best estimate is that fewer than 20 out of 268 experienced teachers now with the Teacher Corps program are receiving NDEA loan forgiveness.

Mr. SULLIVAN. Again, I think we just, only the final word again, we appreciate this chance to appear before you, particularly today because we have a chance to bring before your attention the urgency of this, and the urgency of extension of the Teacher Corps. And we thank you for the opportunity, Mr. Chairman.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. I wish I could do you more good. Mr. SULLIVAN. Well, we thank you for what you have done up to now, believe me.

With reference to Public Law 874 and next on the agenda Mr. Al Lillywhite will make a statement with reference to that, if this is in order, Mr. Chairman.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. We will now move to consideration of S. 382, and we will insert the statement of Senator Church and Senator Jordan into the record.

(The statements of Senators Church and Jordan follow :)

STATEMENT OF HON. FRANK CHURCH, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF IDAHO

Mr. Chairman, I thank you for the opportunity of submitting a statement in support of S. 382 which is being sponsored by Senator Len B. Jordan and myself. The bill has two objectives and, in light of the date of this hearing, the first has the highest degree of urgency. Both objectives are designed to correct certain problems that arose as the result of an amendment to Public Law 874 enacted in the closing hours of the second session of the 89th Congress last fall.

That amendment required school districts receiving impacted area funds under Public Law 874 to deduct from their Public Law 874 entitlements all payments they receive from the sale of timber in the national forests.

This would appear to be a reasonable provision since other laws specify that the Federal Government shall share with counties the revenues from public lands located within the county. It further states that this county share shall be used for roads and schools within the county. Unfortunately, Mr. Chairman, the amendment which was planned only to cut down on the paint on the barn, now threatens to kill the cows.

Public Law 874 provides Federal assistance to school districts having heavy enrollments of children from families either living on or employed in Federal installations. I think no other section of the country has been more helped or has needed this help more than the Western States. The West has great blocks of public domain that are not on the county tax rolls and thus are not a source of the basic financial support of school districts through property taxes. Many of these areas of vast public domain are in the national forests, as is the case in my own State of Idaho and in the other States of the Pacific Northwest and intermountain West. Still other areas include large military installations

or Federal atomic stations, again as is the case in Idaho, Washington, and Nevada. The forests, the Federal installations all contribute children to local public school enrollments. In most instances, because of the nature of the Federal installation, and most certainly in the case of the national forest lands, the districts carrying the burden of these nontax contributory children consist of small rural schools. It is to reimburse these districts for this added burden, that Public Law 874 was enacted. Yet, it too is woefully inadequate.

A school official in Sandpoint, Idaho, situated in the midst of an almost solid tract of national forest land, writes:

The money we receive from Public Law 874 entitlement does not begin to pay the cost of educating our federally connected children. We have spent some $600 per student in the past 15 years to house our students, besides our annual budget for maintenance and operations.

I could cite many more instances, Mr. Chairman, but all of them that relate to the State of Idaho are well detailed in a summary of the Public Law 874 programs and projected losses prepared by Idaho Deputy Superintendent of Public Instruction Harold Farley. I should like to include Mr. Farley's summary and table of comparison at this point:

343.