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the black in their budget by cutting off care at the low priority level.

Mr. EDGAR. What you are saying is it won't cost anymore because you are only going to freeze out the non-service-connected people to fill the gap with service connected either fee basis or inhouse care.

Dr. CUSTIS. Exactly, the short run. Our long range plans would continue to address the needs of all eligible veterans.

Mr. MURPHY. Mr. Chairman, could I just add a point of clarification in response to you earlier question? There was no change in regulation or law or anything else. The law did not authorize the provision of the benefit. It was not provided for by regulation, manual provision, or circular.

Mr. EDGAR. You corrected your illegal action.

Mr. MURPHY. That's right. What grew apparently just grew in practice. It's my understanding that it was somewhat sporadic, albeit maybe widespread. It just wasn't done consistently around the country.

Mr. EDGAR. Thank you.
Mr. Hillis.

Mr. HILLIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have just got a couple of questions, Dr. Custis, because you have covered some of the areas that I was going to inquire about. I think it's pretty clear now, as I analyze this last series of this colloquy and the answers that you gave to the chairman's questions, that the budget dollars will control who is going to get the care. In other words, the dollars will not be enlarged to take care of the non-service connected who are waiting at the back of the line in the outpatient clinic. Is that right? Dr. CUSTIS. Yes, sir, in the short turn. Our longer turn plans would anticipate meeting both needs.

Mr. HILLIS. Okay. Now would it be possible to review the rules on allowing fee-basis treatment in areas closer than 50 miles that would, say, cover veterans who, because of their employment, need service or care at times when the VA isn't available-I am thinking of nights, weekends, that sort of thing-for people that are trying to work it and pay their full load in society and can't fit their care program into the VA schedule? Is there some way to meet that problem so that that veteran can have some freedom of choice?

Dr. CUSTIS. In our granting of fee-basis authority, every consideration is given to the veteran's situation as to why he can't avail himself of VA-provided care.

Ms. Quandt would like to respond further.

MS. QUANDT. What has happened in some of our facilities when there is demand on the part of veterans who are employed and don't want to lose time from work is that we have gone to evening ambulatory clinics and Saturday clinics. Those are alternatives to the type of problem you are discussing.

Mr. HILLIS. I take it that's not the usual procedure. That's, would you say, rare or is it

Ms. QUANDT. I think it occurs largely in our urban centers more than the rural hospitals.

Mr. HILLIS. Just sitting and listening to the hearing today has been very informative. Would it be possible by studying this area of rules to perhaps come up with a plan that would perhaps make this legislation unnecessary? With an act of Congress, you may be legislated into some rigid system that may have faults or problems with it that are a different set of problems than you face now, and force you to do things that are inefficient or inequitable in other ways.

Have you given any consideration to trying to review the present rules?

Mr. MURPHY. Excuse me, Mr. Hillis, if I can rephrase your question since I was, I beg your pardon, looking at a statute. Well, your question is, Could we look at this on a regulatory basis without the necessity for congressional action?

Mr. HILLIS. Yes.

Mr. MURPHY. The answer is yes. Yes, we have some considerable discretion granted by Congress to look at this.

Mr. HILLIS. I want to turn to the security areas for a minute. I am certainly impressed with the statements made here this morning about the way you are trying to handle the situation in the VA system without the use of deadly force and firearms.

Do you have programs in many of these hospitals where you go through and check the patients themselves after they are admitted for weapons and instruments that could be used in taking drugs or in generally illegal purposes?

Mr. FASONE. Yes, sir. Within the psychiatric or the mental health care program, our chiefs of psychiatry services do have programs to fit their particular needs, fit their particular ward. There are inspections of bedside stands and lockers periodically-that may be twice a day in some circumstances to make sure that a patient doesn't have a book of matches with which he could do harm to himself or others, and certainly that he doesn't have drugs, alcohol, or weapons.

Mr. HILLIS. Well, it's my understanding from some of the information received since the hearing started that in one VA hospital, I think in Chicago, you actually, in such a sweep, turned up an automatic weapon, a submachine weapon. Is that correct?

Mr. FASONE. Well, that was quite a few years ago at our spinal cord injury service at Hines we turned up in a sweep some shoulder-held weapons, including a submachine gun. That condition was corrected many years ago.

Mr. HILLIS. You don't have that problem today?
Mr. FASONE. No, sir.

Mr. HILLIS. All right. Thank you very much.

Mr. EDGAR. Thank you.

Mr. Penny.

Mr. PENNY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Congressman Rowland and others have covered most of the questions that I wanted to ask on H.R. 3876. So I will simply ask a couple of questions on the security measure, H.R. 4792. Do you have documentation on the severity of drug-related crimes and drug thefts in the VA facility and, if you can share that information with us now, I would appreciate it, or if you need to document that and submit it, that's fine, too.

Mr. FASONE. We can certainly provide the information you have requested, but we don't have it with us today. We certainly have it in our Uniform Monthly Crime Report. We have an automated reporting system coming in every month. It does reflect specifically narcotic thefts. In our daily offense report system, we do require that any incident, whether it be felony or misdemeanor, if it is drug related, we require that a report be sent.

[Subsequently, the Veterans' Administration furnished the following information:]

Through the DM&S Uniform Monthly Crime Report drug theft and attempted theft incidents are monitored. This report also distinguishes between patients, nonpatients and employees as offenders or victims in the categories of crimes against persons. A copy of the last complete fiscal year report is furnished.

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Mr. EDGAR. Would the gentleman yield?

Mr. PENNY. Do you have any general observations about the relationship of crimes that involve drugs to other incidents of crimes committed in the VA facilities?

Mr. FASONE. I know what you are trying to ask and I read you. It is a very difficult thing to categorize and to keep track of which crimes were committed because there was a drug purpose for the crime. All I can say in general is that we have seen this last 6 months-we have seen a resurgence throughout the country of increased drug usage, especially marihuana and cocaine.

Mr. EDGAR. Would the gentleman yield?

Mr. PENNY. I would.

Mr. EDGAR. Could you submit for the record some overview of 1983 and the generalized categories of drug and theft and those areas? Is that potentially possible for the record? I am not asking for great detail, but just some overview of the major category

areas.

Mr. FASONE. I mentioned and have submitted to the reporter already the overview for 1983 and for four previous years. Are you asking specifically-

Mr. EDGAR. If you have already provided that for the record, that's fine. I just haven't seen it.

Mr. FASONE. Yes, sir, it's in the record now.

Mr. PENNY. In that documentation, does it delineate between patients and nonpatients who are involved in these crimes?

Mr. FASONE. Yes, sir, our reporting system is quite detailed. It delineates, for instance, especially on crimes against a person, namely assaults-it does delineate who committed the crime, whether it was a patient, visitor, or an outsider and who was the victim of the crime. So we do have a complete breakdown for you on that.

Mr. PENNY. All right. I would appreciate that.

In your training program for security personnel, are you satisfied that the level of training is comparable with the kind of training that is provided for security personnel for law enforcement agencies, and other entities?

Mr. FASONE. I can't say we are completely satisfied, no. We do have the hopes and the intentions to expand from 40 hours to 68 hours to give our people more actual role playing type training to prepare them better for actual incidents.

Mr. PENNY. Is there an easy transferability from security work for the VA into other law enforcement and security positions?

Mr. FASONE. Well, there must be because an awful lot of our people leave us to go to customs, postal, and all of the other Federal agencies.

Mr. PENNY. That must be an indication that, to some extent, the training you are giving them is preparing them for work elsewhere.

Mr. FASONE. Yes; I think the other agencies appreciate their experience with us.

Mr. PENNY. And last, are you satisfied with the number of positions that you have in the security division?

Mr. FASONE. We are satisfied with the presupposition that each and every man that we have or authorized meets our standards

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