Senator EAGLETON. That is only a movement, isn't it, ma'am, of his personal place of abode? It is not a movement of his clientele.

Miss SCRUGGS. That is right.

Senator EAGLETON. As the doctor pointed out, less than half a percent of his clientele is white. I know a whole list of black lawyers in St. Louis, and I doubt any of them have a white clientele. One lives in South St. Louis, a lot in St. Louis County, but where they live and where they practice are different things.

Miss SCRUGGS. Yes, it is. It was not clear to me that this point got across earlier in the day. What I wish to say with regard to recruitment of minority people, in terms of money for recruitment of these people, is that we will continue to have a shortage until there is even more subsidy of minority group medical students because, in addition to having to support maybe wives and families and debts left from college, often students have younger brothers and sisters-who have sacrificed their educational opportunities to allow them to start medical school-who must receive, or wish to receive higher education. This is something that wasn't mentioned by Dr. Felix who addressed himself to this issue.

Senator EAGLETON. What training program are you in, for the record?

Miss SCRUGGS. Second-year medical student at Washington University, and I am the secretary of the committee.

Senator EAGLETON. Is St. Louis your home?

Miss SCRUGGS. No; I am from North Carolina.
Senator EAGLETON. What town?

Miss SCRUGGS. Selma, a small town, about 2,500, in the eastern part of the State.

Senator EAGLETON. I guess you haven't picked your specialty? Miss SCRUGGS. No; I have definitely decided to go into community medicine, probably a speciality in that sort of program.

Senator EAGLETON. Probably not back in Selma, though?

Miss SCRUGGS. It depends on whether there will be a community medicine type of orientation there by the time I have finished. Senator EAGLETON. Very good.

Thank you, ma'am.

Yes, sir; Mr. Bond.

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM BOND, SECOND-YEAR MEDICAL

STUDENT, ST. LOUIS UNIVERSITY

Mr. BOND. The committee has put together sort of a proposal that we would like to be read into the record, dealing with mechanisms that could be set into effect to recruit minority students, recruit additional minority students.

Now, this past year most of the recruitment was done by the students sitting at the table. In other words, the institutions because of, let's say, their orientation or because of, let's say, their outlooks and views, were unable to recruit the students and so much of the work had to be done by students taking time off from their course of study in order to do the recruitment job that was run this past year, and this I would just like to sort of read into the record.

Senator EAGLETON. Can you highlight it for us and the whole thing will be in the record.

Mr. BOND. Basically, we have four basic topics. It deals with the identification of students, it deals with the modifications of curriculum that have to be instituted in the medical centers in order to have more black students coming into the medical centers here in town.

Senator EAGLETON. Does that relate itself to certain tutorial and remedial services?

Mr. BOND. Partly. This would include part of it but, at the same time, I also tend to feel that you have to have a broader revision of curriculum, as well as increasing the size of the medical school class. The medical schools in town graduate approximately 110 to 130 students per year; at this rate, the health manpower crisis in this area will not be solved. We have 10 black students this year at St. Louis University; however, if, let's say, there was a curriculum revision where the school could graduate two classes in maybe a 6-month period, in other words, start a class in September and one in January, then we could graduate up to 50; maybe 100 additional black students per year. However, to do this there would have to be a broader revamping of the curriculum than is at present being given.

At the same time, you also have to have a community based orientation built into your curriculum. At present, curriculum orientation deals basically with training at the medical center. This doesn't give a student any orientation to the type of medical care that he should also be getting, that is at a community center, much like the Yentman Center in North St. Louis.

I remember hearing the doctor who spoke earlier say that he would not practice in this type of setting. Basically, the reason why he wouldn't practice in this type of setting is the fact that he hasn't had the exposure to begin with.

This summer, a number of students

Senator EAGLETON. You heard him tell, in all fairness, that he thinks he was overexposed. You mean the intern, Dr. Fiordelisi?

Mr. BOND. Yes. His exposure, he is viewed, let's say, by the community as really being an outsider, and being an outsider and not knowing the people in the community, not knowing, let's say, the organizations that exist; not being able to even speak to the people on the block, it is understandable that he had troubles. If he had more of an orientation toward, let's say, getting out on the street, getting to know the people, working, let's say, in a community orientated center, he wouldn't have had the troubles that he had. Many of the students that worked this summer around the city, in the community, didn't have the problems that he had; so you know his whole orientation toward life is wrong.

Now, going on into modifications of curriculum, I think what is needed really is a community orientation toward the curriculum, and this would include, having consumers, professionals as well as students present when the curriculum is set up. This is the only way that you are going to implement a curriculum that will be meaningful. We can go on to thoughts concerning moneys, let's say, for medical education. At present many of the black students here would not be here unless we have a scholarship or a fellowship, had taken loans and things like this. The taking of loans is not something solely in

clusive to black medical students. Granted, white medical students have to take loans also, however, it puts a greater burden on us to take a large number of loans, because we have to go back into a poor community to practice in; having that great debt over our heads doesn't help matters. Not only do we have to take additional high interest rate loans to build our building, but we are at a greater disadvantage in that we can't get any insurance company to insure our building for vandalism. So what I am saying is that you are going to have to have a broader base in terms of the type of financing that a medical student is going to have.

To finance medical education, what I would specifically propose is, let's say, that the Federal Government should, in essence, finance the physical plant, and let the private sector come up with the moneys, let's say, for students. It would not hurt a physician to kick back $500 to a $1,000 into a general pool or fund. This, in essence, would mean that you would be able to finance medical education received by students and, at the same time, providing incentive to the physician, by giving him a tax break for kicking moneys back into this pool. You may think that the rationale in this is a bit off, but when you actually think about it, it isn't. Think in terms of the dues that white doctors pay to the American Medical Association. I am sure you know $500 to $1,000 to the A.M.A. is cheap, really. The last point that I would

Senator EAGLETON (interrupting). I might say on that point, I don't know the exact figures, but in terms of capital construction facilities, the development of new medical schools as in Kansas City, or the expansion of existing medical schools, as the one we are in now, you will find that a very substantial percentage of capital improvement grants come from Federal and State matching funds. Am I correct on that, Father Drummond?

Father DRUMMOND. That is quite correct.

Senator EAGLETON. In Kansas City right now, there is very little private money going into the building of the Kansas City Medical School.

Mr. BOND. Well, thinking in terms of that particular rationale, I would suggest strongly that the Government could afford to open additional centers in this area. Let's say, if they could get out of their conflict in Vietnam, I mean, you know, this is something

Senator EAGLETON. You and I won't disagree with that.

Mr. BOND. Now, going back to my third point, which is the return to the community, many black doctors have an obligation in terms of draft once we graduate, and I think Dr. Nichols still has his obligation. If he could forego that time spent in the armed services and, let's say, that could be 2 additional years, he could get into the community 2 years earlier than he would normally if he had gone in the Armed Forces first; and so, I would say that black doctors ought to be exempt from the draft, because the community, the people that are where it's at, need the services more than the Armed Forces, let's say, in Vietnam. Senator EAGLETON. You are aware, of course, that there is a disproportionate number of black military personnel in combat in Vietnam. Mr. BOND. This is true.

Mr. Nichols.

Mr. NICHOLS. I am a resident at Washington University Medical Center.

Senator EAGLETON. Before we get to you, Mr. Bond, are you at Washing University?

Mr. BOND. No, I am at St. Louis University. I am one of the two.
Senator EAGLETON. What year are you in?

Mr. BOND. Second year.

Senator EAGLETON. Where is your home?

Mr. BOND. Washington, D.C.

Senator EAGLETON. That is, some of my opponents say, my temporary home.

Mr. BOND. Incidentally, I believe you went on to point out about the physicians that graduated from Baltimore. If you read the latest statistics, they go on to show that most of the doctors practicing within Washington, D.C., general practitioners, practice in the model cities area, so that the rationale that black doctors move to the country is a farce, so to speak, because in the town that you are in right now, proves your statement in error.

Senator EAGLETON. Do you intend to go back to Washington, or do you know?

Mr. BOND. This is sort of a quibbling point with me. I realize that Washington has a great deal of medical manpower in that Howard University is situated in Washington. What I would like to do would be to go out to the Charles R. Drew Post Graduate Medical School to get additional training, in community based health facilities, and from there I am sort of open for options as to just where I will finally settle down.

Senator EAGLETON. Did you apply to either Georgetown or George Washington?

Mr. BOND. I applied to George Washington. Actually, George Washington was my choice, but I got a waiting list and so I just let it go. Senator EAGLETON. How many other schools did you apply to other than St. Louis University?

Mr. BOND. Approximately seven.

Senator EAGLETON. Did you apply to Meharry or Howard?
Mr. BOND. Both.

Senator EAGLETON. Were you accepted there?

Mr. BOND. Sort of a waiting list. I am what you call that marginal student that made it, in terms of minority students, or let's say, I consider myself that student, that had some irregularities in his record and could go either way in a medical setting; and yet I did make it at a medical school, where supposedly I wasn't supposed to make it, so that the thought that many schools use to cop out of taking minority students because they have given him special courses in terms of curriculum, and so forth, and so on, is a farce really, because I took the regular load and made it.

Senator EAGLETON. That is the precise point I want to get. Looking back at your first year retrospectively-you are a graduate of what college?

Mr. BOND. A small college in East Orange, N.J., Upsala.

Senator EAGLETON. Black?

Mr. BOND. No; a predominantly white school. My primary education was done in the ghetto of Washington.

Senator EAGLETON. In the District of Columbia school system?

Mr. BOND. District of Columbia school system in which the Federal Government funds or I should say doesn't funds, because they have never received the types of moneys that the county schools have. Senator EAGLETON. In your freshman year here at St. Louis University did you take certain basic courses that everybody takes? Mr. BOND. Right.

Senator EAGLETON. Were there many times or was there a time when you felt, looking at yourself, that you weren't up to it?

Mr. BOND. We will put it this way. In terms of competing with my classmates, I competed well with my classmates and in some courses I did better, and I also did this recruiting for the school, which was during my third semester while still taking the regular course load and was also seeing students from the airport, co-interviewing them, meeting in committees meetings, to see if we could get these students in, and so really I took full load.

Dr. WHITTICO. And meeting with the local medical societies?

Mr. BOND. Right, as a matter of fact, most of the physicians around town know me.

Senator EAGLETON. Were any remedial or tutorial services offered to you?

Mr. BOND. None. Let's say if I had asked, there may have been, but I didn't ask and so, you know-in other words, you know, there was within me enough guts to say, you know, I can make the regular course load and beat the game.

Senator EAGLETON. Thank you, Mr. Bond.

(Prepared statement submitted appears at p. 654.) Senator EAGLETON. Dr. Nichols.

STATEMENT OF HENRY NICHOLS, M.D., RESIDENT, WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER

Dr. NICHOLS. I am a resident at Washington University Medical Center. This past year I, along with Karen and Julian, had the morbid experience of working with the Washington University Admissions Committee. What I will relate from our experience will point out the many farces that have been presented here today.

Needless to say, in a mild sense of the word, the minds of the people on the admissions committee at Washington University, and I am sure at St. Louis University, which reflects the thinking of committees of schools all over the country in general, is racist to say the least. The first big hang-up is that most of the students who were recruited came from predominantly black institutions in the South. And because these institutions were being put down by the admissions committee, there was a problem of seeing the real worth of a student from Talladega or from Tougaloo College in Mississippi. Automatically he is classified as being a failure before he gets admitted to the medical school. He cannot be considered on the same basis as a student from Harvard University or Yale University or Western Reserve.

The second big hang-up here is that the Medical College admissions test, which is a middle class examination designed for people from a real middle class background, simply can't apply to black students at all. There is only one part of the examination that may be relevant and that is the scientific portion of it. In this examination you have

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