Dr. MARTIN. We have the $600, but we are not serving the margarine to the patients.

Mr. POAGE. And you are not serving butter either, in a great many

cases.

Dr. MARTIN. We cannot get enough butter to serve them.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. You are depriving a sick person, whose health you are trying to build up, of a palatable spread because of this nefarious, wicked, oppressive tax. That is right, isn't it?

Dr. MARTIN. That is right.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. And the gentleman from California seems to think that is a thoroughly laudable purpose.

Mr. PHILLIPS. The gentleman from California does not seem to think that at all. The gentleman, first, comes from a State which is very much interested in matters of health. Would the chairman like to have a statement on the climatic conditions of California as opposed to the use of oleomargarine from a health standpoint?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. I think the statement I made is pertinent to the question you asked the witness.

Mr. CLEVENGER. Mr. Chairman, I am just wondering if, prior to hearing the opposition, you have formed any decided opinion?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. No. I am just taking the direct facts that nobody has controverted. I, as a lawyer, who have practiced for 25 years, always try to hear all the evidence, but when there is only one side, of course, your judgment on the question can be only one thing.

Mr. HOPE. Mr. Chairman, this is all very interesting, but I think we are violating the rule we adopted awhile ago.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. I stand corrected.

Mr. MURRAY. Do I understand you to say you cannot get all the butter you want for the hospital?

Dr. MARTIN. We cannot get enough butter to serve to all the patients and employees for all meals. We do not get enough butter; that is true. For several months now we have not served butter in the nurse's dining room at the noon meal because we cannot get enough. Mr. MURRAY. If the chairman will let me, I want to make an observation.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. In view of the observation I made awhile ago, I will let you.

Mr. MURRAY. I think that is an indictment, not of any past Congress, but of us, and the way we are handling the food program.

Dr. MARTIN. We don't have enough butter to go around. We can't get enough points to get it.

Mr. MURRAY. And you realize, of course, during this very same time that you cannot get this butter, we have a War Foods Administration and a stepsister called the O. P. A., that is allowing people to buy, without points, quart after quart of cream, take it home, get a churn and make all the butter he needs. And yet you say you cannot get the butter you need for the people in your hospital.

Dr. MARTIN. That is true.

Mr. MURRAY. That is all.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. I would like to say to the gentleman from Wisconsin, that we cannot get all the milk we want here in Washington, myself, my wife, and three children. We are rationed.

Mr. MURRAY. I would say the only reason you can't get it is because you don't have the price.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. I can't get it. I have got the money. Mr. MURRAY. Well, of course I could answer that, but instead of making a statement I will put this question to you, and say that after all we have heard as to milk coming into Washington-they were putting people in jail 2 or 3 years ago, because the milk wasn't good enough. I can't help it that the city has increased in size so much, and I just wonder how many people in the city of Washington know that milk is being sold here today that you couldn't even make U. S. No. 1 cheese from.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. We are not interested in the cheese business right

now.

Mr. PHILLIPS. As I gather, your difficulty with the butter is one of not having enough points.

Dr. MARTIN. That is true.

Mr. PHILLIPS. It is not a question of quality, Mr. Murray; it is a question of not having the points.

Mr. MURRAY. Well, they are making all the oleo they can possibly make now, as near as I can find out. Isn't that right, Mr. Chairman? Mr. GRANGER. Doctor, you wouldn't want the committee to think that your patients have asked for oleomargarine in preference to butter, would you?

Dr. MARTIN. No. I wouldn't want to say that. I would prefer to serve the butter. Not being able to get the butter I would like an adequate substitute.

Mr. GRANGER. That's all.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. We thank you for your appearance and for your statement, Doctor.

We will next hear Mr. Montevam, of the National Catholic Conference of Charities.

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM T. MONTEVAM, REPRESENTING THE NATIONAL CATHOLIC CONFERENCE OF CHARITIES

Mr. MONTEVAM. I am here today at the request of the Catholic Hospital Association, which was unable to be represented here today, and asked me to appear.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. What group do you represent?

Mr. MONTEVAM. The Catholic Hospital Association of the United States, which has a membership of approximately 750 hospitals located in all parts of the United States, with headquarters in the city of St. Louis.

We are also members of the national joint committee which represents the three national hospital associations. I am, in an advisory capacity, a member of that committee.

I feel I cannot do better on behalf of the Catholic Hospital Association that endorse the statement made by those who have gone before me. Mr. Clark and Dr. Martin, with whom I have been associated for a great many years, spoke to my personal knowledge, the minds of their associations as well as my own.

The main objection of the hospital association to this tax is based on what I think is substantial discrimination against voluntary associations as compared with public associations engaged in parallel work.

These hospitals at the present time are obliged to increase the consumption of substitutes for butter, because of the difference between the ration point value of butter as compared with the ration point value of the substitute, and they are compelled to use margarine. If they use margarine in large quantity, as Mr. Martin has pointed out, and undertake to color it, they become manufacturers of margarine and are subject both to the tax on manufacture and the tax of 10 cents a pound, which makes it almost prohibitive to use oleomargarine. I am sure all of them would prefer to use butter for table use and for tray service, whereas in the kitchen and in the bakery, I think they use large quantities of margarine.

Mr. MURRAY. Just one question. Have you found any place where you have a shortage of butter?

Mr. MONTEVAM. Shortage of butter? I don't know about a shortage, but there is a shortage of ability to buy butter, and I suppose that a proper reflection of the quantity of butter available is the point rationing that the hospitals receive from the Office of Price Administration. Presumably the point value is high because butter is not abundant. I presume that the rationing means just that.

Mr. MURRAY. Do I understand you to say that the hospitals have the same rationing

Mr. MONTEVAM. I don't say they have the same, but they have rationing, and that rationing indicates the scarcity as compared with oleomargarine. Margarine values, as we have heard here is 6 points, and butter is 16 points. That means, of course, that there is two and a half times as much margarine available as there is butter.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. We thank you for your appearance.

We now have some consumer witnesses. We will hear Mrs. Chamberlain, whom I understand cannot be here tomorrow.

STATEMENT OF MRS. E. G. CHAMBERLAIN, REPRESENTING THE NATIONAL FEDERATION OF SETTLEMENTS

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. Will you give your name and state whom you represent?

Mrs. CHAMBERLAIN. Mrs. E. G. Chamberlain. I represent the National Federation of Settlements. Their headquarters is at 147 Avenue B, New York City.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. You said settlements?

Mrs. CHAMBERLAIN. Settlement houses; yes, sir. There are about 150 settlement houses in the organization. There are a great many more in the United States, but I think a lot of them work on such a narrow margin that they cannot even pay dues to a national association. I guess you are all familiar with the work settlements do. Mr. ZIMMERMAN. Proceed.

Mrs. CHAMBERLAIN. This statement was written by Miss Margaret Cross, the Washington representative of the Consumer Interests Committee of the National Federation of Settlements.

The National Federation of Settlements, which represents thousands of low-income families in cities throughout the country is opposed to legislation which discriminates against the consumer, especially when it strikes at the family food budget.

At a recent meeting of the board of directors of the federation, a resolution was passed unanimously favoring the law to repeal the Federal taxes on the production and sale of margarine, since in the opinion of the members, these taxes are unjust and discriminatory, working undue hardship on the group of consumers who most need ready access to nutritious foods. At the present time, when butter is beyond the reach of thousands of families, no blockade which prevents them from obtaining an equal substitute should be allowed to stand.

And I should also like to add that the settlement houses that serve hot lunches to children that come there are in exactly the same position as the others. They find themselves in the position of unwillingly breaking the law if they happen to color the margarine they want to use.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Are these meals served free of charge?

Mrs. CHAMBERLAIN. No; I think at most of them there is a small charge. It doesn't cover the cost. Of course, practically all of the settlements are supported-for instance, all of those here are members of the community chest.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Are these public institutions?

Mrs. CHAMBERLAIN. Oh, no; they are private institutions, and the children do pay a certain fee for the meals, but it is a very low cost service.

Mr. PHILLIPS. I think there is a very distinct line that could be drawn. None of these settlement houses or hospitals are operated for profit?

Mrs. CHAMBERLAIN. No.

Mr. PHILLIPS. I think there is a very distinct line that could be drawn there.

Mr. ANDRESEN. I think there is a bill that has been introduced in the Senate to remove some of the restrictions on these charitable organizations or organizations that border on charity, for the duration of the war. I have seen a copy of the bill, but I do not recollect the Senator who introduced it.

Mrs. CHAMBERLAIN. Certainly in its present effect it works a hardship on these particular organizations.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. We thank you very much for your appearance. Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Thank you.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. The committee will have to rise. The rest of your witnesses are invited to be here tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock, at which time you will be heard.

(Whereupon at 12:05 p. m. the committee adjourned to 10 a. m. Wednesday, November 3, 1943.)