Secretary FREEMAN. Yes, they do. The CHAIRMAN. The administrative expense. The CHAIRMAN. And here you are permitting the use of Federal funds for that. My fear is that this amount may be increased and we would find ourselves with the Government carrying more of this administrative cost than we contemplated. It would seem to me that this school lunch program has been well handled because of the fact that you had full cooperation at the local level-the fathers and the mothers and the local people supported it and made it a success. I would certainly think that we should have certain yardsticks so as not to interfere with the present method of having the local people contribute whatever is necessary to operate these programs. If administrative costs are to be used in areas where the local community cannot afford it, that is one exception, but I would certainly dislike to see the present system changed in any manner, because, I repeat, the fact that the local people interest themselves in this and make a go of it has, in my opinion, spelled its success. Secretary FREEMAN. I think that the chairman's remarks are very valid. We do not contemplate that there would be any changes. I think the relationship between the State and the Federal Government in this program would continue as is. This merely provides some additional resources which we believe will be well used and are important in reaching our objectives. The As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, a good bit of the recent legislation has provided for a sharing of the administrative costs. Elementary and Secondary Education Act is an example. The CHAIRMAN. And do not mix it in with the school lunch program. I understand that we have laws on the statute books now that will be handled by the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, with some administrative funds that are going to be furnished, and I cannot see any reason why we should go into it. I wish you would be more specific in that respect and give us such yardsticks as you think it would be wise to place in the bill so that our programs will not be disturbed. Secretary FREEMAN. We would not have any objection, Mr. Chairman, to a statement in the bill that the current administrative relationship and the responsibility as it has worked out in the past would continue. This provision would merely provide some administrative funds which the States would then have available and which, presumably, would be matched by equivalent funds for administrative purposes, so that the program could get under way. The CHAIRMAN. What program are you talking about? This one, or the one administered by the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare for the elementary schools? Secretary FREEMAN. This program that is being administered through the Department of Agriculture, the school lunch program, and not the program of the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, or not the program of the Office of Economic Opportunity, or their food related programs. This relates directly to the administration of the school lunch program, with special emphasis on the amendments which would involve an expansion of that program. And they are set down in the chairman's bill. The CHAIRMAN. In respect to the nonfood provision, have you any specific recommendations to make as to what yardsticks you are going to use in order to make a community amenable to whatever funds we provide for that purpose? Secretary FREEMAN. Well, there is spelled out-the purpose is spelled out in some detail here in the bill, and it would be the money which would be distributed, based upon the school living up to the standards that would be the product of the regulations which would flow from this bill, assuming that it would pass. The CHAIRMAN. Well, that would not in any manner affect those communities where we now have programs in which they have been capable of providing their own funds for nonfood equipment. Secretary FREEMAN. No. This is, I think, pretty well set out as follows, in the language as it is now before the committee: There is hereby authorized to be appropriated for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1968, and for each fiscal year thereafter such sums as may be necessary to enable the Secretary to formulate and carry out a program to assist the states through grants-in-aid and other means, to supply schools drawing attendance from areas in which poor economic conditions exist with facilities, other than land and buildings, for the storage, preparation, transportation, and serving food to enable such schools to establish, maintain, and expand school food service programs. The CHAIRMAN. That is what I wanted to bring out. I was familiar with the language, of course, in the bill, but I wanted to be certain that we provided some kind of yardstick whereby it is only those areas where the communities are unable to provide the facilities that the Government would come in and give assistance under that section of the bill. Senator BOGGS. Are we talking about section 17? Secretary FREEMAN. Section 15, right now, on page 6. Secretary FREEMAN. I think that you are right, Senator Boggs. Section 17 provides additional administrative funds would be used for implementing these sections of this bill, and I think what Senator Ellender is asking about is whether the funds to be made available to provide special facilities where there are apparently nonexistent would be used where needed and not be used in the areas where the school districts themselves had and could provide the facilities. Senator BOGGS. I understand that, but I misunderstood the chair I thought he was talking about the administrative costs. The CHAIRMAN. I was talking about the nonfood requirements, and that appears on page 7, beginning, in fact, under 15(c), which reads: Funds apportioned and paid to any state for the purpose of this section shall be disbursed by the state educational agency to assist schools, which draw attendance from areas in which poor economic conditions exist and which have no, or grossly inadequate, facilities, to conduct a school or food service program, and to acquire such facilities. In other words, I was in hopes that we could have testimony to indicate that wherever a community is able to do itself, that the Federal Government would not step in and do it, because we would have a lot of feet dragging if we start a program where the Government is going to begin to put in moneys to provide equipment. Of course, that would also apply to the administrative end. This program has been successful, I repeat, because of the fact that the local people took 64-823-66- 4 such an interest in it and did a lot of work to assist the children, and we do not want to get away from that principle. Secretary FREEMAN. Mr. Chairman, we are not without experience in this respect. The current programs under the appropriation of $2 million have directed themselves to the school districts that cannot afford and have not made this school lunch available, and this has worked, we feel, satisfactorily. It has not resulted in any inhibition of the initiative or responsibility by the school districts who ar: able and who have gone forward under the basic program, and I would want to show that if this section can be strengthened in that regard, we have no objection to administrative regulations to carry forward section 15(c) which would be developed to make certain that these funds were used for the purpose the chairman indicates and not used in any way to inhibit the program which is now working effectively in other districts. The CHAIRMAN. I wonder if you or Mr. Davis could tell us whether or not there are some districts which have the capability, but a lack of interest exists. In a case like that, are we going to step in and provide funds for this program that is set up? Secretary FREEMAN. I will let Mr. Davis comment on that, from an operating standpoint, because he has been operating it for a good many years. It would be my judgment that the language is such that the intent of Congress would be very clear that if this were passed that poor economic conditions and inability to meet the needs would be a clear policy that we would seek to carry out. Do you want to comment on that, Mr. Davis? In Mr. DAVIS. As the Secretary has said, the States are experienced in determining these needs of the schools under section 11 of the present act. And in drafting our administrative regulations to carry out this section, it would be our intent to follow somewhat the same criteria as stated in section 11 of the present School Lunch Act. other words, to determine that this school was really in need by the relative economic level of the district in which it is, by the indication of the need for free meals, by the amount that experience has shown that the children could afford to pay, by many of these same criteria. And I think, again as the Secretary has pointed out, that the legislation itself would very definitely limit us to a school that had not, or could not, provide adequate facilities to serve a lunch, and I am sure that we would certainly take into account the fact that no program existed, not just because of a lack of interest in the local community, but because they did not have the funds or tax base to have the program. The CHAIRMAN. Under other laws the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare can come in and provide food, and I presume facilities for the children in certain areas that you have just described. Have you run across any situations where the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, under existing law, has taken over and attempted to feed people in communities such as the ones you have just described? Mr. DAVIS. Yes; sir, there have been numerous instances across the country, particularly in this first year under the new Education Act, when the local school districts have not had enough time to develop some academic programs, they have used this money to augment the school lunch programs locally. The CHAIRMAN. You mean the programs that you started? The CHAIRMAN. Why was it necessary for them to come in and augment it? Mr. DAVIS. Under our current school lunch fund, the States have not found it possible to supply all of the free meals that should have been supplied, and in some instances have not been able to provide the equipment and facilities adequate to serve a lunch. I think what the Secretary has said, and what you have said, indicates that in the long run it would be sounder to finance this sort of operation under the National School Lunch Act, rather than being augmented through another program. The CHAIRMAN. That is what I fear. Mr. DAVIS. I am certain that it is. The CHAIRMAN. That is what I fear, and that is why I would like to see the whole program administered under one head and not have competition among some of the Departments of the Government. In other words, here you have been providing food, and, as I understand it, some areas have been supplemented by the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare. Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir. Senator YOUNG. Mr. Chairman, I think that this raises a very important question. If under the Federal Aid to Education Act a school can buy facilities, why should we, under the school lunch program, provide the same thing. The school district may be hard up for several reasons. They may have overbuilt. They have spent money for buildings rather than for school lunch programs. Another school district may have adequate money because they have not put up the buildings that they should have. I think a program such as providing facilities would better come under the Federal Aid to Education Act. The CHAIRMAN. Would you mind commenting on what Senator Young has said? Secretary FREEMAN. I quite agree that the program ought to be in one place, as when it is administered in one place it is not, in a sense, the kind of competition as has been mentioned, why, you would then develop and apply standards and take into consideration local differences in a way that is not possible when it is spread all over among a lot of governmental agencies. Senator MONTOYA. As I understand section 15(c), together with criteria discussed a few minutes ago, a school district must (1) lack the financial capability to provide the facilities and (2) the school children of a particular school must be from homes or areas within the school district in which poor economic conditions exist. In many municipal areas a school district may be rich in total bonding potential and in school revenues, but at the same time have some poor school buildings and facilities, within the school district, for the use of children from economically depressed families. The criteria as previously stated would not cover such economically deprived children because both conditions cannot be met. Where is a line of demarcation in the administration of the particular criteria which has been covered in the discussion this morning? Secretary FREEMAN. No. 1, section 15 applies to the provision of assistance to provide facilities for school programs, equipment, et cetera, as a part of an overall plan in the areas which cannot afford to do so. The question of children Senator MONTOYA. What do you mean by "the areas which cannot afford to do so"? An area can be a part within a rich school district or an area can be a school district itself. Secretary FREEMAN. Well, I think that this could very well be, but if a school district does not have the facilities for a school lunch program, and if it does have a tax base which would support such, and if the adjoining schools or districts have such facilities, why, in that instance, we would give it a very low priority to that situation, because of the failure to act responsibility by that school district. Senator MONTOYA. Mr. Secretary, every school district in this Nation has established priorities for its revenues. Most of the priorities are for additional school buildings or an increase in teacher salaries. You will encounter this in almost every school district throughout the Nation. How are you going to determine that they should be granted funds for school lunch facilities? Secretary FREEMAN. I think that I would say that if you have the situation that you have hypothecated where a school district was building a new school or was increasing the teachers' salaries and had made no provision for school lunch programs, why, they would have a very low priority in terms of any additional funds. Senator MONTOYA. In other words, you will try to exercise good judgment in determining whether or not these funds for facilities are justified? Secretary FREEMAN. As a practical matter, the amount of funds. that will be made available under this are so modest, in terms of the demand, that I do not think that there will be much of a practical problem. There are all kinds of areas where we know, in some cities and in many of the isolated rural areas, that there simply are not school lunch programs available, and where there is available not the tax base, and nothing will happen unless there is some assistance, and these are going to be the first priority. In other areas, by the time we get to others, we will be out of money; and we will find that these problems are less than you think they are. Senator MONTOYA. Another thing that you desire through this legislation is to provide the service equipment and to seek authorizations to so provide such service equipment in the district where it is needed. In view of the fact that you are expanding the program, so that most children who cannot pay will be included as free entrants into the program, that is increasing the administrative load; is that correct? Secretary FREEMAN. Yes. There are two phases to this. We are trying to reach children who will not get a school lunch otherwise, and to do that (a) you have to have facilities to have a lunch. Senator MONTOYA. And you have got to have the administration. Secretary FREEMAN. And then (b), you have got to have some food and (c), in order to get (a) and (b), you have to have some administration. That is right. Senator MONTOYA. Is that the main reason for asking for the authorization for this additional service equipment? Secretary FREEMAN. Yes. Senator MONTOYA. And the additional administration costs? |